Amber the Clinic Horse

[KP nut]

Buck Brannaman is doing a 3 day clinic in June. Some riders are coming from overseas so needed to borrow a horse for the clinic. I put Amber forward and she has been selected!

I'll go and watch. Very excited. I think it will be an amazing opportunity for her and for me. Better if I was riding of course, but the clinic sold out instantly. So this is the next best option. The rider is very experienced (far, far more than me) and will stay with me for a few days before the clinic to get to know Amber a little first.

It is kind of like sending your child off to school. What if I don't like something that is happening? But I absolutely trust Buck's judgement, admire his skill and respect his ethics, so I am confident it will be a good experience for us all.

 

[Trewsers]

Gosh how interesting it will be! Hope you post about how it all goes too.

 

[chev]

That will be interesting! Hope it's goes well and look forward to hearing about it all afterwards.

 

[KP nut]

Yes definitely. Prepare for lengthy Buck clinic notes!!

 

[Jane&Ziggy]

Wow! When & where is the clinic? Can spectators come?

 

[KP nut]

It's at Aintree near Liverpool and yes spectators are welcome but it's £50 per day.
Jockey accommodation is available for £12 a night.

 

[KP nut]

BUMP! Spectator tickets still available. Less than a month away now. I can't wait.

 

[Skib]

Your previous threads about looking for a horse to buy made it clear you wanted a horse for a clinic.
If you like Brannaman's work, and are OK with the scale and class size in his clinics and have been using his methods with Amber, then your loaning her seems fine.
I can only say that it was not what I would do. It is very difficult when knowledgeable riders like yourself post on NR seeking opinions or praise. Because it is an entirely different situation from when real New Riders ask for advice or information. Instead of a teacher to student exchange, it is a debate and sometimes a dispute between equal adults.
I would not take a horse to a Branamann clinic because I was taught so much of my riding and handling of horses by Mark Rashid - and I use John Lyons a lot too. Tho I may use elements of Branamann (and other trainers) when I need them, there are things he does with horses, both content and speed, that are incompatible with my Rashid approach.
Just as I cant follow Mary Wanless as what she teaches her riders to do is not compatible with Rashid and the clasical horsemanship of my principal RI.

The other reason is I would not allow my horse to be put through these exercises by another rider. I am not sure who is riding her and how this arises?
Branamann has some pretty incompetent riders at his clinics and slow to pick up his body language.
And particularly an overseas rider. Riding culture differs so much from country to country. A rider who has learned to ride in Spain or Italy rides differently from someone from Germany and the Americans differ again.
In your place I would have gone to watch the clinic and then returned home to work with Amber on the things that interested you and which you thought right for her. At the right stage of her development and training.
From my point of view you go to too many clinics with too many different trainers and try to emulate them and possibly get their approval. Yes, because I was a new rider, I was encouraged by people here to go to many many clinics to educate myself in what the different trainers did.
But that is not the same as an owner taking their horse to a variety of trainers and becoming known to the trainers. Like if Branaman comes this year and Mark comes next and someone local to you does another.
Educating oneself as a rider is a whole different process from a rider educating their horse. It has taken me three months to get Grace back, recognisable, as my manageable, safe, responsive horse since she was off work during the winter. But she was when in good health a most beautiful and well schooled privately owned horse. As she is now I would take her to a clinic - but not as she was in recovery. She was as much as the staff could handle.
Amber is a young untrained horse and in recovery.
So your choices for yourself, your horses and your kids, as so often these days, are a million miles away from what I would choose. The horses and what they do with me and for me, matter more to me, than things like clinics and competing and the approval from human beings. Your posts make it seem as if the relationship between yourself and your horses is not high on the agenda. So tho we met at a Rashid clinic and you adopted his ways for a time, there really isnt common ground.
Or not these last few months.

 

[KP nut]

Gosh I do seem to be annoying people these days. Really not sure why what I am doing is so controversial?

I am doing what I have always done and will always do - read widely, learn continually, practice mindfully and pay attention to what is happening. Does that mean my horses are confused because I try a new technique/gadget every week. No of course not, because it is not new gadgets or new techniques. In fact it is not technique driven at all. The learning is all internally consistent: I am simply seeking better ways of communicating with my horses and better ways of understanding them and helping them feel physically and mentally comfortable in their work.

Mark Rashid has moved a long way from when he taught you and yet your posts repeatedly hark back to 'when Mark taught me to....' . Who is stuck here? Not that that is a criticism: if what worked all those years ago still works, then great. But I still feel a long way off where I want to be and people like Rashid and Brannaman are where I aspire to be. They seem pretty similar to me: they understand horses and they communicate with them with a level of refinement and skill that is - to me - breathtaking and beautiful. They both prize softness above all else. They prize clarity of communication. They both adhere to the view that horses are generous, willing creatures who wish to get along with us. They both root horse problem behaviours in the owners and handlers. They both place great emphasis on finding the try -- something I still believe I miss repeatedly by just not being subtle or quick enough. They both essentially use pressure/release as their primary means of communication and both believe that if horses are physically and mentally comfortable AND they understand what you are asking of them and trust/respect you as a competent trustworthy leader, then they will give it to you body and soul. Whole Heart Whole Horse (Rashid) and The Faraway Horses (Brannaman) are not so very different.

I am a paid up member of Mark Rashid's on-line learning community which is fantastic and is a rich source of new learning all the time. So assuming you still value Mark's approaches then I don't see why there is no longer any common ground. Incidentally I have not let go of any of the learning from the clinic where we met and from the many clinics I have been to since. If I go to 'too many' well that's an opinion you are welcome to have, but I frankly disagree. Some clinics and some instructors teach me what I DON'T want to do! But it is all learning.

In terms of this clinic - I feel privileged that Amber and I have this opportunity. You may not agree, and that's fine. But please don't ascribe motives to me when you can have no way of knowing what my motivations are. You and others repeatedly tell me not just that I am doing the wrong thing in your view (that is entirely your right and it's an open forum) but that I am doing the wrong thing BECAUSE...... I am seeking approval, I just want rosettes, I am only interested in competing, I want to suck up to trainers, I want a get out clause - ie I can blame a trainer if a method doesn't work - whatever. It is insulting and it is untrue. I am interested in horsemanship in all its forms. Including but not limited to competing. I am as interested in groundwork as in anything else. I am certainly not seeking approval! (God knows I'm not getting it and I never did when I used to get flamed in the old Natural Horsemanship threads either. So if I am motivated by seeking approval frankly I am bloody awful at it!!) I have never considered that anyone but myself is responsible for how my horses go and feel. And the relationship with the horse is paramount. So disagree all you like but I'd greatly appreciate it if you (and others) stopped trying to tell me what I really think, want or feel. It is arrogant in the extreme to do so.

I happen to believe that my understanding and thereby my relationship with Amber will be strengthened not weakened through this experience which I am very much looking forward to.

I am willing to post updates if people are interested. But if not, well that's fine too

 

[Trewsers]

I don't see anything wrong with wanting to learn where horses are concerned. It would be a very dull and stilted world if we all followed one method regardless of whether or not it worked. To me its all about what works between you and your horses. @KP nut please don't stop sharing your information and accounts of various methods. I enjoy reading them regardless of whether or not I agree or would use them..

 

[KP nut]

Incidentally I think you are confused about something: You say I 'wanted a horse for a clinic' which sounds rather like any horse, any clinic! That is not quite right.
I was booked into Mark Rashid's clinic as a rider in May 2017 (ie this month). But had no ride after selling Cally. So yes I did want to have found my new horse by then. But that was specifically because I did not want to miss the chance to be a rider at a Rashid clinic.

As it happens, he decided not to come to the UK this year after all. The Brannaman clinic is an entirely different matter and is coincidental. I have a friend who is riding - indeed I am trailering her horse to the clinic. She told me there had been a request for clinic horses. So I contacted the organiser. I was not actively looking to find a clinic to go to. The opportunity just arose and I took it.

 

[Mary Poppins]

Tell us more about the clinic. What happens and what will he be doing with Amber? I don't know much about Buck Brannaman (is that how you spell it) and would be really interested to hear all about his work.

Please don't think that NR is turning against you. You have had some very unfair replies to your threads from one or two people, but the vast majority of us love reading your updates and hearing about what you are up to. I admire your posts because they are so honest and I really enjoy reading about your progress and ups and downs. The reason that you and I post on forums like New Rider is simply because we are obsessed with horses and want to share with like minded people. There is no seeking praise or approval, that is a ridiculous thing to imply. So please ignore the negative and carry on exactly as you are because NR would be a much duller place without you. x

 

[Jane&Ziggy]

Don't take it personally, @KP nut ; although this is a very friendly forum, people still speak their minds. You contribute a lot, and you talk about your experience and what you have done / are planning to do a lot (rather than asking for advice a lot, like me), and that opens the conversation for people to say "Well, that's not what I would do." But it is all opinion in the end.

The Brannaman clinic I watched (last year I think) he had a rider, who was very quiet and competent and did exactly what he was told, which in the case of the horse I saw was not very much. My thought is that you will get the best out of the clinic if you have a really clear objective in mind. As Amber is going well for you as it stands, what do you think you will be wanting her (and you) to learn from the experience?

 

[KP nut]

Thanks @Mary Poppins
The clinic is 3 days long split between groundwork and ridden work, depending on what the horse need/the rider wants. I've not been before but as I understand it, there is a broad structure that everyone starts with - ie a series of exercises that are very good at highlighting any problems or issues which are then worked on. The exercises are not 'drills' for the horse to perform but are basically movements and interactions that show up areas of confusion, tension or lack of balance or anything else. For example backing the horse up from the ground. Does the horse brace against you, is the horse uneven, are the steps uneven, hesitant, rushed, is the horse relaxed or tense. Are your communications/instructions unclear? He has a DVD series based on his clinics which I have watched and they are really interesting.

I like Brannaman because he talks about universal skills. He is a remarkably versatile horseman. He has trained horses to play high goal polo for international teams exactly the same way he trains horses to work cattle. He basically says he wants any horse to move all 4 feet in any direction in any gait at any speed on any terrain in good balance and self-collection whenever he wants. If they can do that they can play polo, perform canter pirouettes or sliding stops or work cows! They can gallop flat out or amble along on the buckle in a relaxed walk. He worked on The Horse Whisperer - the Robert Redford film that is based on Brannaman. The trained film-horses could not get a particular scene done. He used one of this own horses and it took him about half an hour to get the scene done perfectly. He says with good communication you don't need 'training' as you can just tell the horse what you want them to do and they will do it for you.

 

[KP nut]

My thought is that you will get the best out of the clinic if you have a really clear objective in mind. As Amber is going well for you as it stands, what do you think you will be wanting her (and you) to learn from the experience?

That;s a great question!

For years now I have been obsessed with the idea of connection: the harmony that can exist when the horse and rider are perfectly in tune with each other. I used to think it was something that just happened or didn't. Or something that was specific to highly schooled horses who would go off little more than thoughts. I still remember my awe at being told in a lesson to 'think canter' and the school mistress I was on obliged!

However after seeing Mark Rashid in Hampshire all those years ago he said that this is something ALL horses can do. In fact they all have to learn to stop trying to connect in that very empathic way because humans aren't aware enough or paying attention enough. He said horses spend their whole life filtering OUT random noise from us so how can they possibly listen to subtle connections! That made me realise that connection is something that can be actively cultivated. And that is what I want with all my horses. Cally and Thyme were brilliant at it. Which makes sense as they had very little handling before I got them so had not started filtering us out yet. Dylan was awful at it. Totally disconnected. Which also makes sense as I am fairly sure he was harshly treated from his very defensive/shut down behaviour.

Amber is lovely and willing, but she seems a little mechanical. Both Brannaman and Rashid appear to have a problem with drills/exercises which they think make horses mechanical or mindless and we see a bit of this with Amber, I think. In lunging she just picks up trot immediately and goes round and round and round irrespective of what I am doing in the middle! And apparently oblivious to the fact that I am trying to 'talk' to her! She is getting better and better at realising that I am trying to 'talk' to her when I can touch her. So ground work at close quarters works well and she is going very well under saddle when I can use the reins and my leg to touch her. But anything at liberty or on a line causes her to disengage and go into auto-pilot. And not only that but she seems tense and worried too. Possibly because she spent a lot of time being chased around with a whip to make her jump over stuff if the sale video on FB was anything to go by!

I want her to realise that we can still communicate even when I am not physically touching her and I think the clinic will be fantastic for that. as that seems to be quite strongly emphasised by Brannaman, He wants the horse so look to you as leader, even from a distance, to pay attention to you and to take comfort with being near you.

 

[Flipo's Mum]

Not for one second suggesting you should contribute less, but the more you provide in terms of information about yourself and your horses, the more you leave yourself open to questioning and interrogation when you appear to contradict yourself. Everything's black and white on the internet. No time for the nuances or changes that happen in our heads on a day to day basis so we take what you wrote six months ago and hold you to it today. Amber was a green baby you were restarting from my memory, you considered sending away and then decided best just you ride her with help from your RI but now you're happily lending her to a stranger to ride at a clinic.

I appreciate that things may have changed since those opinions and comments were shared, but without that explanation, it just appears that you change your mind to suit yourself (which, don't get me wrong, is absolutely your right) but it makes you sound a bit flaky in your approach, chopping and changing impulsively to suit yourself rather than the horse. And we all care for the horses on here so that is our first concern which I'm sure you'll appreciate. This is probably why people question it.

Personally I'd never let Tom Dick or Harry ride my lad at a clinic, but I don't think we have the same wavelength when it comes to horses as shown by a thread on which you commented that horses generally have to have a job to be with you (or something to that effect). Im more fluffy bunny I guess and that's fine. I hope you enjoy your clinic, but I hope you also appreciate that not everyone is going to agree with you all of the time, and that there are other ways to roam which are equally as valid as your own. I used to love your updates with Thyme and appreciated your view point. More recently I struggle to keep up with the different horses and ponies you have had and your approach appears to have moved away from my own. Such is life. We're all different.

 

[KP nut]

I'm glad you liked my Thyme updates but tbh I was exactly the same back then! During that time I went to a Mark Rashid Clinic, flirted with clicker training and Parelli, signed up for a RWYM course , tried out EE and a CR instructors and generally muddled along in my usual flaky way! I also took her on a hacking holiday soon after backing her, which was seen as a little reckless by some.

I have now largely abandoned both clicker and Parelli, though I still like RWYM, EE & CR. And new stuff has come along in the meantime.....

 

[newforest]

I don't think anyone is annoying anyone or being negative, it's called a different opinion. For some reason this forum appears to be unable to process this at times.
A forum is about having a conversation and sharing opinions, experiences etc at least I thought it was. If people who disagree, think differently can't say so what's the point.
I don't expect everyone to agree with me or what I do. It would be nice though if people felt they could say so.

I wouldn't let another rider ride mine at a clinic. My choice. That's purely because I know she can be a worrier and I would want to be the one on board learning the feel, timing and not watching.
I have done a demo with mine, watched clinics etc. I have also walked out of one along with few others!

As for the amount of clinics you choose to do as you say your choice. The only thing I will add is when my friend visited last week, she didn't know what to do with the cob in the school.
In her search to constantly learn she has become numb, she isn't processing what's learnt because she is off somewhere else and then somewhere else. Out off the clinic, lesson setting with nobody telling her what to do and when, she had lost the ability to trust her own judgement.
Go and enjoy yourself was just met with 'what'

 

[KP nut]

Honestly I don't object to the differences in view at all. I thought I had made that clear. I do object to people telling me that all I want is praise/approval or a get out clause for things going wrong or whatever. Because that isn't an opinion, it's an assumption about what motivates me and sorry but if that's wrong, that's wrong! I know how I feel and what I want. It is insulting and arrogant for others to tell me what I really feel, think and want!

I can see why people would not send their horses to a clinic or to a trainer. The concerns are perfectly valid. In the case of a trainer I have decided the risks are too high even though doing it myself makes me nervous. I don't feel the same way about the clinic. I have a reasonable idea of what will be involved and I have no concerns about cruel or confusing approaches so really the worst that can happen is it's a bit of a waste of time. Or that Amber is handled/ridden in a way that I then drop afterwards.

And yes I spend a lot of time thinking/reflecting. But out in the real world me and my horses are having a blast! We have no problem just hanging out together and never run out of ideas of things to do. I do not I am not paralysed by knowledge but enabled by it.

 

[KP nut]

I would not take a horse to a Branamann clinic because I was taught so much of my riding and handling of horses by Mark Rashid - and I use John Lyons a lot too. Tho I may use elements of Branamann (and other trainers) when I need them, there are things he does with horses, both content and speed, that are incompatible with my Rashid approach.

Incidentally it may (or may not) interest you to know that Kathleen Lindley (whose book 'In The Company Of Horses' I very much enjoyed) spent 12 years working with and alongside Rashid.... and the last 7 with/alongside Brannaman. The approaches are not incompatible.