Anyone know how much £ and how often Wintec's need flocking - and do Cair ones ever?

DITZ

DITZ

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Dec 31, 2002
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I have an 18 month old Wintec with flocking and was wondering if it needed reflocking and if so any ideas how much it costs. It seems to have dropped andI am on a narrow gauge so cant change the gullet unfortunately.

And also, the CAIR ones? Do they need the cair equivalent of flocking? Not sure what, if anything, that might be! A bicycle pump?

I had the saddler out in the summer to re check it and she didnt mention anything.

I am thinking that if it does need reflocking and the cair one doesnt I may trade it in as it could save money in the long run.
 
I was told by my saddler, whom I dont trust her judgement on saddle fit, that a wintec cant be reflocked.
Something to do with the material the upper is made of - the synthetic material. It doesnt stretch and/or something.
I am hoping to sell my wintec and get a bareback pad and save up for a treeless then - best thing for a youngster in my opinion, ever changing shape and all.

Anyway, sorry - i havent really helped at all.
But in the book I have, apparently the cair ones can be reflocked. The saddler either puts in new air pockets or shuffles them aobut a bit inside.
 
As far as I know a saddle should be reflocked annually though this will depend on lots of things, not least the state of the flocking and how much use the saddle has had.

I would be rather surprised if the wintec couldn't be restuffed, that sounds a bit worrying to me, not heard that before.

With the Cair I think it's a case of checking and adjusting the inflation of the panels, I suppose it's a restuffing of sorts, just involves air instead?:D
 
I have a wintec 2000 that i've had for about 3 years and it that time its had to be reflocked once. The CAIR panel model...im not entirely sure but i imagine it would just involve reinflating the panels the required amount.
 
Lots of questions here so I'll try to answer them one at a time - I own a cair Wintec 2000 GP.

1. Any saddle should be reflocked only as needed. That means anything from every 6mths to 6 years as it is entirely dependent upon the saddle+flocking (type)+horse. Don't reflock just because a certain amount of time has passed - remember that flocked saddles need to settle and so if you reflock to often you are actually creating a saddle that for a short time 'doesn't fit' until the flocking settles correctly.

2. There's nothing special about Wintec material that stops them from being repacked - its just a synthetic material. Sounds like you are right to be suspicious of your saddler.

3. If you have a CAIR filled saddle - there is no need to 'repack' - the airbags don't deflate over time. They are sealed units - it is not possible to adjust them either. I've you were to ever puncture one I think you'd have to contact Bates for replacements and probably have a major job replacing it in the panel.

However, if your horse's shape changes to such a degree that the cair panels can't cope a good saddlefitter can put wool flocking into a CAIR saddle to make it sit correctly as required. I've had this done and it works well - the flocking is put on top i.e. on the riders side of the cair panels so that the air panels still work on the horses back. The instructions for this come with a new cair saddle.

My only words of warning for adding flocking to cair - do get a saddlefitter who repacks onsite - I hate the ones who take them away anyway but particularly with cair. Do get a good saddlefitter\saddler - cair's a bit more tricky than packing a 'normally' flocked saddle because it'll move around.

Can't help you with the cost - I pay $55 for a callout\consultation + $80 for a full repack onsite, which includes watching me ride pre and post pack to see how the saddle performs - so I guess that's around 40 pounds??
 
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I thought Cair saddles had wool flocking as well, not just the air bags, therefore they are reflocked in the same way as 'normal' saddles. The air bags are designed to be left alone, unlike Flair where the reflocking is done by adjusting the amount of air in the bags.

I have been told by saddlers that Wintec are a nightmare to reflock because they are designed slightly differently to other saddles, bu it is not impossible!

In terms of cost, my saddler reflocks saddles for free that have been bought from him. However, that is me taking the saddle to him, not him coming out. Not sure how much that would be as I've never done it.
 
CAIR saddles have no flocking, just air panels which do not deflate. I have had my CAIR saddle for nearly three years and it was one of the best purchases I have ever made.

Wintecs can be reflocked as I had my old one done without a problem.
 
I have a friend who has cair panels & she has the saddler out every 12mths to check & adjust as neccessary. She was told this was essential when she bought it.
 
I phoned the saddler to book her to come out and see him. I explained the problem - that the saddle was sliding forwards and therefore dropping onto his withers and rubbing them and she suggested a wider gullet? Surely that would only compound the problem?
 
Originally posted by tubby
I have a friend who has cair panels & she has the saddler out every 12mths to check & adjust as neccessary. She was told this was essential when she bought it.
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I think you might find that's FLAIR.

CAIR cannot be adjusted in any way shape or form. CAIR are sealed airbags - two in each panel. If a saddler is saying that they are 'adjusting' CAIR bags they're conning you. For a start you cannot get in to do anything to them without completely pulling the saddle apart.

To put flocking into a CAIR saddle they have slits the length of the panels to allow a saddler to pack and adjust any wool flocking with their packing tools - but these don't allow them to do anything with the CAIR bags. I'll take some photos of mine to illustrate if you like :)
 
I just looked on the Wintec Website www.wintec.net.au and it had the following to say on CAIR:


CAIR air panels hold their shape unlike traditional stuffing which will, over time, ride down and become unevenly compacted.
CAIR air panels do not need adjustment or special maintenance and require no re-stuffing.
CAIR air panels constantly adapt to your horse's shape as the back and shoulder muscles work.


and had this to say about their ordinary saddles:


In order to keep the saddle fitting well, you should have the fit of your Wintec saddle checked after 4 to 6 weeks of riding to ensure sufficient clearance is still being provided to the horse's wither.

We recommend riders check the fit of their saddles after 3 months and then every 6 months throughout their saddles life, to ensure the saddle continues to fit correctly as the horse changes shape according to its level of fitness.

If the saddle comes too close to the wither, the panel should be inspected to see whether the best alternative is to either add more wool to the front of the saddle or fit a slightly narrower gullet plate. In general we would advise the fitting of a narrow gullet plate, providing there is still ample resilience and depth in the wool panel, so the closest fit to the horse's back is maintained.

When the saddles are restuffed, care should be taken not to over-stuff the panels as in most cases this will cause an incorrect fit on the horse and improper weight distribution. It is a far better alternative to fill the panel back to approximately its original stuffed shape and lift the front of the saddle through the fitting of one of our fractional fit gullets as required.

Through the use of the Easy Change Gullet System and Wool Repacking a Wintec saddle can be custom fitted to your horse's back. Wintec recommend that a qualified saddle fitter is consulted when buying and fitting a new saddle.

Hope this helps.
 
Thanks Janice thats really helpful. I had the saddle checked in the summer, I always have it checked whether it needs it or not - this time it needs it!

Do you know what they mean by their 'fractional fit' gullets?
 
I think they just mean their gullet plates - ie the next half size?

I would be cautious about that advice though - the stuffing compacting and the horse getting narrower are two different things and there's the risk of causing muscle wastage if you narrow the gullet purely to raise the pommel.
 
Thanks Yann, I am on the narrow gullet as it is so I cant see theres anywhere to go there. I was suprised by my saddlers idea of widening the gullet though - does that sound right to you?
 
Gemma (Maverick927),
Are you on the Wintec website?!? I just found a comment and picture and I'm sure pretty it's you! :D (near the bottom of the page). That's so cool! :)

http://www.cairpanelsystem.com/peopleWhoCair/index.html

I have also been wondering what the "better choice" would be if I ever got a saddle. I've been looking towards Wintecs, and couldn't decided which was better, flocked or CAIR. I think I've made up my mind now, and I'd prefer to go with CAIR.

Here's a page on it for anyone interested:

http://www.cairpanelsystem.com/

(it's from the Wintec Website).
 
Originally posted by DITZ
I was suprised by my saddlers idea of widening the gullet though - does that sound right to you?
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Posssibly! The problem may be caused by the narrow gullet being too narrow, so your saddle is shifting to the narrowest part of the horse. A wider gullet may allow it to stay back more. Not sure if it works in practice though!

The thing with narrow, high withers (assuming this is the problem you are working with) is that you normally need a wider gullet than you think. Few horses, if any, are 'narrow'. The key to fitting saddles to them is to have a gullet that does not pinch and allows plenty of room for muscle development. The other thing to avoid is to stuff the saddle to give higher wither clearance if this results in the saddle touching either side of the withers. This again causes pinching and believe me, gives more problems than it solves! The fit of the saddle should come lower down on the more muscled areas.

I'd be inclined to have a discussion with your saddler over use of numnahs and corrector pads. The Korrector made by Flair is fantastic for things like this. You need to start off with a saddle that basically fits, but rather than narrowing the gullet to give you wither clearance you use pads under the saddle to help raise it off the withers. Having said that, avoid riser pads that have 2 distinct levels as this causes pressure points. The Korrector allows you to adjust the amount of air in front and back bags therefore adjusting both clearance and front/ back balance. First thing to check though before going down this route is that your saddle is a good basic fit.

Apologies for the essay :eek: :D
 
Originally posted by virtuallyhorses
and that's me just above :D
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Before I saw Gemma's comment on the website, I thought the comment by "Vivien" could have possibly been you (I always think something may be by someone I "know"). That's SO cool! :D Your horse looks like he has improved so much! Great muscle tone! :)
 
zingy, thanks for your advice and help. I had a little play today and tried moving it right forwards with the help of a breaststrap but still rubbed. The only thing that clears it is to pull it right back and I have a barnsby grip pad which makes it stay in place. It looked and felt fine to me but YO thought it was too far back and would hinder my position in jumping. Still at least I can hack out whilst we wait for the saddlers visit. I do have the narrow/medium gullet too and I will let her try that if she thinks its necessary although I am sure she will measure him first. He is your standard high withered TB who changes shape this time of the year. I didnt have this problem last year but he is in better shape than last so maybe a wider one is the answer. That said, I didnt have this problem in the summer when he was wider still.
 
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