Back legs giving way ***new vids inc trot***

tazzy-anne

tazzy-anne

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Sep 27, 2007
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I feel a bit foolish for leaving this now & never having mentioned it to the vet :/ but honestly thought nothing of it or assumed laziness.

Xander was started last June. Ever since he has been reluctant to be bitted, & occasionally moved away from the saddle & even started headshaking last summer. All of these things not a big problem in themselves, & I've had everything checked, vet has even watched him on the lunge, but nothing out of order so put it all down to tack = work, & nothing was a big resistance.

But I'm now wondering if they're part of the bigger picture or connected at all.

My main concern, which was never a concern before, is the back legs giving way. I don't recall it happening in the school, but can't say for sure it doesnt.
It only happens in walk, not trot or canter (though he is reluctant to canter & this is becoming a problem). My instructor has been riding him for me & never said anything about this problem. Only the frustration that even she can't get him going or keep him going in canter!

When this happens we are out on the road, so it's not a tight circle sort of thing.

It was def mainly the right side the other day, but unsure if it is or ever has been the left too.
It is not a trip or a slip, & I'm never worried he's going to fall over. It just feels like it's giving way then he carries on as normal. It doesn't appear to be painful. Sometimes it'll just happen once, sometimes quite a lot during the short ride (we've not progressed that much ;) ). Sometimes it doesn't happen at all for ages.
I hadn't ridden him for several weeks till this week with the weather & all, & rode out Wednesday. He did it quite a lot. I assumed it was laziness as he came in quite lethargic. He still seems to be suffering tiredness since being out 24/7 ;) so I just tried to gee him up & get him more active & jokingly told him off for being a lazy bones & to work properly. I can't recall if this gets worse or better with fitness.

He doesn't seem to do it when not ridden ie in lunge but I couldn't say for sure as I don't think it would look obvious - it dorsnt feel as though it would look obvious.

I'll give the vet a call Tues (bloody bank hols!) but don't think it's urgent enough to ring out of hours as it's been nearly a year!

So should I be worried? :(

I've only thought about it as moms pony has been 'naughty' on & off for ages, she had surgery today for OCD :( & seems all the naughty things were simply because of discomfort. So it got me to thinking about all the little things that have bothered me for ages that aren't major, but not quite right either :/
 
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When I brought Flip back into work this year I felt a little twinge, like his back end did this odd little skip independent of his front end. It would only happen once on a ride and you could mistake it for a stumble but a tad discomforting anyway - I had the back man out, not specifically for this, in fact, it was just to check he wasn't compensating somehow for the lameness he's had. Turns out he had a weakness or a 'twinge' in his back end and I've been ordered to do stretches with Flip as well as more pole and hill work to get him working more. He's not done it since. Could be something small, but best get it checked - but would recommend a physio or someone in addition to talking to your vet.
 
I don't really have a great deal to add but you know your horse and if you think something is not quite right then calling the vets is the right thing to do. Just to add a couple of years ago when I rode my boy he just felt wrong on certain strides, nothing to see on the lunge and know one knew what I was talking about when I mentioned it. Well after lots of checks and test yeap mummy was right. arthritics in his hocks.
 
I guess I didn't think much of it as I hadn't ridden for a long time until I started riding him, & he's done it from the start (I think), so it was just 'normal'. Im starting to panic now though after attempting google it :(

But I am paranoid generally. I always think he's ill. All the other horses seem the same every day, same expressions, act the same, but he has very different moods each day. Tonight I just took him out his field to put a diff rug on. He was reluctant to go back in (though this has been normal as he wants the grass the other side of his field). Then he watched us leave, but whence drove passed he hadn't walked back to join his friends, he was still just standing in the mud in his own looking sad :(
He couldnt come in though, everyone is out so he'd get mega stressed if he was left on the yard on his own.

He does worry me.

Just to add, I had a back lady out around Xmas (it's not yet been 6 m anyway as I have a reminder set ;) ). She worked all over him & didn't find anything apart from slightly tight pectoral muscles where I'd been over girthing :( & tight poll but that's mainly his natural head carriage.

Nout up with his back. I had this lady recommended by a saddle fitter who suggested I have him checked as I was paranoid about my saddle, before shelling out for a new one unnecessarily.

One other thing I noticed was when I was getting his coat out with a furminator he started sort of flinching when I scraped towards the back of his back. It was only when I pressed quite hard, & he didn't get aggressive but looked a bit uncomfortable and sort of hollowed away from it. Odd. But I'd not long had the back person at that point so again thought "weird" but that was all.
 
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Could be a lot of things but for the reasons I'll quote below I am wondering if he has a problem with his stifle(s). He sounds an awful lot like a pony I used to look after who had a mechanical problem with his left stifle that caused it to "click" in and out of place during exercise. A lot of the things you mention were noticeable with Piccolo too.

It is not a trip or a slip, & I'm never worried he's going to fall over. It just feels like it's giving way then he carries on as normal. It doesn't appear to be painful.
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This describes Piccolo's very well. Does it feel a bit like he's dropping his hip? Sort of falls away beneath you, noticeably on one side?

It only happens in walk, not trot or canter
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It was the same for Piccolo, but the vet couldn't say WHY it usually happened in walk. Maybe something to do with the joint mechanics in the different gaits? I have a clicky left ankle but it only clicks when I'm walking and not when I run....?

it's not a tight circle sort of thing.
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Piccolo did it in straight lines too. It was the front-to-back movement of the joint that caused it to click, so circle or straight made little difference - although it was definitely more pronounced during pivoting movements, such as turn on the forehand and haunches, and lateral work moving in the direction of the bad stifle.

he is reluctant to canter & this is becoming a problem)
can't get him going or keep him going in canter!
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We had canter issues with Piccolo as well. The issue being that, obviously with canter striking off the inside hind, a stifle problem in that hindleg made it physically difficult for him to make the transition. Similarly when in canter it was hard to keep him going because he had trouble pushing off from that hindleg. Instructor noticed that he was better when he was on the forehand than when being asked to work properly (martingally less impact/pressure on the back legs?)

I hadn't ridden him for several weeks till this week with the weather & all, & rode out Wednesday. He did it quite a lot.
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Piccolo's was most certainly worse after a break. The more regularly he was worked the better it was - he got stiff after more than a couple of days off.

He doesn't seem to do it when not ridden ie in lunge but I couldn't say for sure as I don't think it would look obvious - it dorsnt feel as though it would look obvious.
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We actually lunged Piccolo at pony club to ask if the kids could see the problem, there were some adults present too, general conclusion was that you wouldn't have noticed it if you weren't looking for it. He was a chunky sort with short legs and a choppy stride so could easily be mistaken for being part of his natural movement.

Those are all things that jumped out at me from your post, you could have been writing about Piccolo really! In his case, the vet thought the problem was partly due to previous obesity putting strain on his joints - he was 6 years old and awfully overweight when we took him on, and had had laminitis so bad he could barely walk to his water trough. However he also said that he had seen it in youngsters that had worked too much/too hard for their age... horses with a mechanical/conformational flaw in the hindlegs... horses that were, or had been, overweight... horses who had had other injuries / issues and had been moving oddly / unevenly to compensate.
 
My problem with Joy was slightly different. She would lose her leg behind her which would then give way way, but only on the way home and down a slope.

I got the farrier to take a look as he's brilliant at looking at the whole picture. He advised that because Joy is forward and her wind is good, I'd be taking things too quickly in getting her back to fitness as it takes longer for muscle to develop than for fitness to.

He advise holding her back and taking more time to allow her to build the muscle she needs. That's what I've done and it cured the problem...until today :redface:

Today was a longer and faster ride. I noticed her do it once just as we were nearing the yard. She was tired as it was the most demanding ride we'd done in a couple of years, my fault as she wanted to run, we had 10 miles of brideway in front of us and there wasn't a sole about so when she wanted to open it up to a prolonged gallop I let her. She only wanted to stop because she recognised our exit point. I didn't, so I thank the heavens for my secure postion :redcarded:

So for us, it's lack of muscle to do what she and I have been wanting to do. It's always worth getting the usual checks done though if you aren't lucky enough to be directed to find the solution for yourself.
 
Wow, thanks for that Joosie, that's very interesting. So what was the actual (technical name I mean) problem with Piccolos stifle? It does seem to be more stifle than leg tbh.

He's never been obese - he has been a tad too heavy some summers but nothing ott, he hasn't been worked apart from low intensity parelli ground work type stuff until he was started last summer at 4.

Friesians are known for ocd (which my mom found out tonight that her pony has).
 
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Hmm a different angle JC. Tbh though it was such a short ride i don't think it's exactly like that. It really wasn't enough to push fitness or muscles. I *think* on wed it didn't happen down the main road, we walked & trotted fine around the circular route of the estate till it went downhill when he walked the rest of the way - he started doing it noticeably then. So yes down hill & after a good trot, but not a massive one. I'm sure he's dome it before straight after leaving the yard too (also downhill though???).
 
Slipping stifle can present like that (piggywigs does if it is unstable rather than "out")

Also being sensitive in feet - madam was booted in front tonight but lame on a hind - spring grass = sensitivity = not weight baring properly - she is hardly having grass either grr!!
 
I'd suggest a visit from a McTimoney/chiropractor to rule out any muscle issues as well as mobility.. A horse who's uncomfortable in striking off in canter, will either go disunited (Shadow has previously done this) or refuse point blank, it's just too uncomfortable, whatever it is..
He previously had 'partially rotated hips' which his McTimoney put right. Whatever the injury of mischief he's done, a thorough MOT would be a good idea, especially as he's a growing youngster still, and often the McTimoney or Chiropractor can pick up what a vet might miss
 
Thanks for all the suggestions :)

I dont think its feet. Theyre solid but i occasionally feel him sensitive on a very rocky track & it's very different to this. He gets very slow & careful, & short stepping. Not like this problem as he steps out & is nice & forward still. It happened through the autumn/winter too so not grass/season related. If there's one thing I'm fairly confident in, it's his feet (for now lol! :D )
*Off to research all the possible conditions suggested*
 
Realised the back / physio type person I had in Dec is a mctimoney person & she didn't pick up anything but I also didn't mention it. I've asked her to call me tomorrow.

It doesn't sound like wobblers, virtually none of the symptoms match. It also never locks, so not really locking stifle, however something very similar does match - slipping stifle. Will read up more tomorrow.
 
You are right to be considering calling a vet after the holidays. Theres any number of thing it could be - and really no point in second guessing.

Even wobblers has to start somewhere (not saying thats what it is, but simple 'lack of coordination' is a symptom) but the earlier you look into any potential problem, the better.

EPSM, stifle, hock, back, developmental and diet issues, neurological issues, feet ... even just conformation.

I wouldn't worry about what it *could* be until you've had the vet look at him, tell them your concerns and let them come to their own conclusions.

Fingers crossed its nothing serious x
 
Intersesting post as this is something Squire does.
I think mine is just being unfit as he was in far more work before I got him as thinks he's blooming well retired now.
In a young horse I would check out for peace of mind.
 
It also sounds quite like something Rafi does. He came in from the field lame last year and the vet thought he'd had a kick to his stifle. To complicate matters he had a virus at the time which took ages to recover from and ever since then I've had a niggling feeling that something isn't right. The vet couldn't find anything wrong but of course if anyone's watching he doesn't do it! He does two things, one feels like the back leg giving way briefly and the other is kind of skipping forward a bit as though something's touched him on his backside. He's only ever done it out hacking and less often now than he did. Blink and you miss it, so no-one's ever actually seen what it looks like.

But I did google slipping stifles and found this video on youtube - it looks exactly how it feels when I'm riding Rafi and he does it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_kMGXQOrkE
 
I agree with Joosie.

This is what Izzy had too. He was brought into work after 4 years in a field and for a while felt fine. Struggled to get into canter and would buck a bit going into canter. Then after about 9 months or so of work he started hopping in trot. Got the vet and he had no idea, talked about MRI and bone scans. I got permission for back lady. She was amazed at how sore he was. She had done him before but could only do 10 minutes this time as he was sweated up with the pain.

She said he had a weak stifle, probably from an old injury. He had learnt to compensate and been able to for while in field and while coming into work. But gradually his body wasn't able to compensate anymore. His right stifle is weak but it was his left side that was incredibly sore, his hind quarters and all through his ribs. Did about 4 osteo sessions over 6 weeks and then started back into work, walk hacks and lots of pole work. He was perfect after about 3 months.

Hasn't looked back since but i do sometimes feel his stifle slip a bit, in walk on the road. He had 3 weeks of light work over Christmas while I was away and when I got back he hopped a bit in trot. Had osteo again, basically he needs to be in full work - no time off as the muscles around the stifle are what keep it working. Even a couple of weeks of light work weaken the muscle and the stifle movement suffers. So you might find you need to work him 6 days a week or so. The literature I have read say that they can't be 3-4 day a week rides with this problem.

Don't worry. If this is the problem then it is easily manageable and Xander can do everything you will want to do with him, not sure about Grand Prix stressage:wink:. Izzy does endurance, jumps, cross country, dressage so it doesn't need to limit what you guys can do.
 
Thanks :)

Rips I don't want to speculate at all the could be's, but also can't sit around going out of my mind with worry either until Tuesday :(

I'm better off left to research & put my mind to things. It's not going to hurt as the vet will be called regardless, it only means that I've kept myself occupied, educated myself, & made myself fully prepared for anything the vet has to say on the matter :)

I've looked at some tests they do for wobblers & he passes those daily anyway ;) i.e. He backs up really well from ground or ridden, he moves his feet back when I try to move them (was trying to teach to bow but everytime I spread his legs to get him in position he moved them back so he was square again ;) ) also about pulling his tail - we've done that as in he us resistant when it's pulled by I've also taught him to be 'led' by the tail ie walk backwards when I pick it up etc, which a wobblers horse wouldn't do.

He's very balanced - had comments about how much for his age & esp for a young friesian! He's fine with that. We do lots of sideways & he doesn't get tangled so not uncoordinated. He doesn't look wobbly at all.
The vet. May draw their own conclusions, but those are the reasons I've ruled that out personally.

I'm not one who can just sit on it once I've got something on my mind ;)

Why oh why did I ignore it all that time though?! People said it was just laziness so I thought it was too :( but I've been getting more concerned why he won't canter too - that was getting more than laziness.

Spoke to the chiro who obviously said to speak to vet first, if it's stifle she can't do anything but there's a chance it could be back related.

Bodshi thanks for the link. That's far more extreme than what happens to us, but it's that kind of thing yes. Never happened in trot so far though.

Tiga that's quite hopeful ;) though doesn't sound quite the same as my chiro gave him a real good going over & he was totally fine all along his back, but could be a very similar type of thing.
 
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The stifle slipping slightly was my first thought too - it's quite a 'technical' joint and maybe the locking mechanism is a little worn - might be linked to the fact that their joints suffer more wear and tear as part of their make-up?

You do have to be put onto the physio or alternative practitioner by a vet though - especially if there's anything you might claim on your insurance for. :smile:

Hope you find out what's happening - it's awful to have to worry all the time and they can't tell us what's going on! It took 3 days for the vets to find out Dora's problem - nerve blocks, scan, x-rays over the whole near hind to find it was a fractured pedal bone - expensive but we got there in the end! :happy:

Good luck :wink:
 
Mine too tbh.............had a friend who had a horse, in fact TWO, with stifle problems and the latter one, which there is a long post on here about somewhere, I rode.

He never felt 'lame' just didn't feel right and as he was related to my friends other Horse who had already had stifle problems we suspected this may be it.

Then he was seen out in the field actually 'clicking' it back into place himself.

When the Vet came and pulled on his tail you could actually SEE his stifles slipping for a pastime.........shocking !

Its 'apparently' quite common in young Horses and 'can' clear on its own or be managed by keeping the Horse relatively fit, however, obviously if this is the problem your Vet will advise better than I could.
 
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