Bitless Bridle and brakes....or lack of!!!

M

miriam vernon

Ted and Daisy's Slave
Nov 11, 2004
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derbyshire
groups.msn.com
When Ted hacks alone or has a riding lesson he's as good as gold. I've been for a few hacks with a couple of friends of mine - who I admit are fairly fast and furious on their horses. Ted has now got very comptetitve and I'm starting to lose my brakes. If we have a canter he's constantly pulling my arms out of my sockets and slowly eroding my confidence.

A lot of people have told me to put him back into a bit - I would love to hear peoples opinions about this. I'm feeling really gutted - I had hoped to go drag hunting this winter, but I just don't think he's safe enough. I'm also going to stop riding out with these particular friends as Ted may be picking up an association with them. I'm also going to stop taking him in the trailer to new and exciting places. :(

Last year when I bought him (he was 4 years old) I only lightly hacked him and then gave him the winter off. I brought him back into work slowly and have been upping the pace because he's been so well behaved. We've gone to the local show, started jumping, had a couple of goes at Cross-country fences and gone on faster hacks in company. maybe I've just overloaded his brain, but he's becoming a speed freak. :eek:

Should I go back to a bit or should I just ride on my own or what should I do - I'm feeling really frustrated and disappointed and I think the problem is totally of my own making which makes me feel even worse.

Sorry I'll stop moaning now
 
What sort of bitless are you in? My horse is lovely but can be a complete twit in company on a fast ride (still a lovely twit at that though:)). I can keep hold of her in a Dr Cook, but it can be a bit of a struggle, so I do tend to stick her rubber pelham in in such circumstances and we all know where we are. I don't use a metal curb though.

A lot of apparently quiet horses actually love a good blast, I doubt very much that you're overloading his brain, rather that he loves what you've been doing and he's got fitter. As you say, avoiding situations where he'll fire up is the only way to deal with this if you don't want it to happen. You haven't caused a 'problem' as far as I can see, you've just uncovered another side to his nature. Making sure you don't always canter in the same places out on hacks and vary what you do is a good way to keep things sensible.

It all depends what you want to do with him, but there's absoloutely no problem mixing and matching between bitted and bitless, I do from day to day without the slightest problem.
 
I have a slight problem with holding Maddie back after a blast, she also gets a bit silly when we do exciting things (like attempting to school last night and all she wanted to do was canter and jump the poles :rolleyes: ), im also having a few rubbing problems from the cross straps because I have to hold her when we hack out, although because shes an ex racer I always wonder if im asking her to go faster, but if I drop hte reins like jockeys do shes off anyway :rolleyes: :p
I was thinking of changing her into a hackamore for hacking but she hates it, I tried it on her the other day and she shook her head constantly, if the dr cook carries on rubbing her I might be getting a happy wheel bitless to try.
 
Yann, its a Dr Cook. I think my problem is that although I am fairly confident I now feel VERY aware that I'm a Mum and have big reponsibilities and that has definitely made me more cautious.

Does anyone else swap between their BB and a bit - I thought Ted might get a bit miffed at having a bit in his mouth again.
 
Miriam,
We know exactly what you mean. We have a pinto that leant into or pushed thru everything, given the chance.
May we suggest it is not a tack problem but a training problem. more tack, more expense, more problems... thats the way it went for us. We then backed off and went to a rope halter, started the training from square 1. Got the lil fella to give the desired response to a given cue using less and less pressure on the ground, then got back into the saddle, still in the rope halter to reinforce the cue/aid=desired response lessons.
The main lesson was to get a crisp back up from a halt using minimum pressure. within a day (2 x 20 minute sessions) we got the desired response everytime. Then we moved out at a walk, asked for a back up. The pinto knew exactly what we wanted, but before he could back up, he had to stop.........we then got a smart halt built into the cue for a back up.
next we moved to a trot, cued a halt, the pinto understood and gave the desired response giving a down transition in gait, then a halt, then a back up. At any point we could have then removed all pressure and asked for fwd movement. This gave our 'runaway wreck' a good reliable set of brakes.

When a horse gives a response to a specific cue and is repeatedly rewarded for the response, this seems to become easy for the horse to get it right and this issue dissapears.
Sorry to ramble on, but as i said, we had this same problem.

p.s. when we went back to a snaffle, the conditioned response was still there and previous problems were lessened by about 95% (he is still the same cheeky, smart & arrogant gelding he always was, but we love him)

p.p.s. We still dont like the Dr Cook bridle, tooo many problems. In theory they are great, but once you get a horse trying everything to escape pressure while you have a totally loose rein, there is a problem. We dont like or use devices that constrict, confuse or cause poll pressure BUT everyone has the right to use what they are comfortable with. (i have just put on a flack jacket, sorry Dr Cook fans)
 
Forgot to mention, we have the same experience as yann, bitted or bitless, it seems not to be an issue with the horse. We imagine its the training Yann put into the horse that gave the desired response not the tack.
 
LR, the method you describe using backing to stop is awfully similar to that described by Mark Rashid in one of his books, interesting how the method is often the same.

However I can't claim any credit for my horse's training I'm afraid, she's just a lovely willing sort, and very tolerant:D
 
Yann,
We have Rashid's AGood Horse is Never a Bad Colour, Considering the Horse, Horses never Lie.......Rashid seems to have many books published, would love to find out which book covered the halt/back up. Do you remember? We found this control method thru the Parelli 9 step back up. It just became a speed control / brake by itself, without much thought by us. The horse understood what we were doing better than we did, we just learned it from our horse.(maybe he read Rashid??? :0)

Have been thinking about NH packages......Parelli does it the best, but without help, support, encouragement, one can still feel lost and self doubt creeps in. In the early days, we had parelli study groups so that students could assist & support each other.
Beth at NaturalHalters.com does an online interactive weekend course thru the US suite 101 online university. This is equiv to Parelli level 1 plus many extras. Its costs US$29.95 and provides Pdf dowloads of notes, guides and manuals that are worth the money in themselves. In this cyber age, this is another option to spending a fortune on videos, manuals and packs.

Have fun & ride safe.
 
Lodgeropes
he backing up idea sounds like a very good plan. I know its training and not tack. Ted is a typical little cob - he's bright, quick to get bored, but very willing when in the right mood.

I've started having riding lessons from a friend who is very good and takes account of Ted's personality and my ability (ahem!). Over the next couple of days we are going to do an experiment because we think that the short term problem is that he lacks respect for the Dr Cook. when I had my lesson last night we put Ted's old bridle on (with a bit) and he did have slightly more respect for the bit, but was still riding very heavy. The speed at which Ted switches off means that he's possibly being a bit slower to learn! Anyway the experiment.

Sunday - I plan to ride with my friend, Ted will wear his BB, but be riding out with his field mate. We'll try him taking the lead and then Daisy leading and do various things like that.

Tuesday - I ride in a bit with my friends that go fast on every bit of open ground(!!!!!), try him in fron, in the maiddle and at the back and see what happens. I'm expecting, as you say, that the tanking problem will only lessen very slightly.

If he still tanks as expected then I won't ride with those friends anymore until his training is more improved and go out with quiter people and horses so he still gets usd to the company, but doesn't anticipate that he's going to be hooning around!!!
 
Yann.thank you very much, found it. that is the same technique. Got to go re read rashid now.

miriam, good luck with it all. It would be a great benefit if this thread continues so we can all share the experience with you.
(and send chocolates & flowers to the ward if it does not go well :0)

Just make sure you establish a set up cue that clearly lets the horse know you are about to ask for a halt....that sometimes helps a lot.
cheers
 
schooling on the ride

have you tried schooling him in the open?? me and my friends are always out trail riding and the horses always get excited and try to bolt. try and take him out on your own on the trails, find a nice big flat spot on do some basic schooling while your out there, to get him concerntrating on you and calming down abit. when he gets huffy again, just repeat some simple things, to get him concerntrating again. then go riding with your friends again and school him while they are standing there, then evntually they can do circles too. its easy just to do 5 mins circle work, then 20 mins trail riding, then another 10 mins flatwork ect..... good luck with him. :D
 
Well last night (Sunday) went fine. We did a ride that I've only done before with my Speedy friends. Because Ted was only out with his 'boring' fieldmate he was very well behaved. He pulled slightly more than he would have done had he been on his own, but nothing that was anywhere near to what he's like in exciting company. He did pull marginally more when he was behind.

Lodgeropes, I think your idea about the backing up thing is good, but what if you've done all the training and then start to go out with your friends again and your horse also learns that they can go backwards at 100 miles an hour - is this risk a possibility?

Titowest yes I do schooling out on hacks, but must admit only do a bit of leg yielding as were going along the road when I'm out with friends. When Ted has got excited I have slowed him and done lots of transition changes and maintained control whilst my friends continue their canter, but Ted is always pulling.

I'm riding with my friend's tommorrow, but putting Ted in a bit (I'm not expecting earth shattering results) so keeps your fingers crossed for me. My friends have said that we can always do less exciting rides together and then as Ted's training progresses we can do more exciting ones so at least I won't be missing out on their company.
 
I've never heard of similar techniques ever causing this problem, for a start horses tend not to run backwards out of choice, and the saying about taking control of the direction by being able to ask for it probably holds true.

Although it's probably quite a sensible thing to do it is quite a lot to ask a horse not to run off at the same speed as his friends, so it's no surprise that he's a bit reluctant about it.
 
Ted was a complete angel when I rode him on Tuesday. After experimenting I have now found that he looses confidence when he goes in front, races competiviely when at the back, but is perfect in the middle. He had one go at trying to rush, but when I tweeked the reins he came straight back to me. Very pleased about how the whole thing went.

I'm planning to continue riding with my friends and keep moving Ted around in the group and see how it goes. Anyway, I'm feeling much more positive. owever, I'm going to continue to ride him in a bit until he has had some more training and then go back to the BB.
 
some horses just get carried away with the whole galloping about thing and you will lose your breaks if he is that type it is a horses nature to run with the herd and the more you do it the more he will fight you to run with the others. keep him sensible before you teach him to bolt
 
why is the horse in a bitless bridle if he is better in a bit some horses will pull through the pressure of a bb but stay happy in a bit
 
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