Bitless Bridle-What do you think?

[Alex]

First of all, as LindaAd said, its a question of safety. Good luck trying to control a horse who spooks without a bit.

Secondly, you cannot actively teach a horse to go on the bit without a bit Maybe it would be possible if the horse actually was a confirmed dressage horse who carried himself, but if it was a green horse? Nope. (but I guess this is only important if you wanted to ride in that style)

(not trying to cause a fight here, honest )
But I actually had MORE control in a bitless bridle and had better brakes in one too, should the horse spook.

Also, you can actually teach a horse to go 'on the bit' with a bitless bridle. Although they have no bit in their mouth, they can still work from behind and work in an outline. Milly learnt to do all of that in a bitless, I and I hacked her to Royal level (the top level of showing here).

So yeah, there are alot of misconceptions about bitless bridles and I just thought I'd share my experience with you

 

[levi1739]

Let me mention that I really don't like most hackamores/bitless bridles myself. I do find a bosal useful and wouldn't hesitate to use a soft rope hackamore, but nothing more complicated than that. Just a simple boy here, less is better.

That said, I do recommend that everybody ride their horse in a halter and lead rope. A well known western trainer says, "if you can't ride them with one rein, how will you handle two?". It's a very valid point and one that everybody should consider. "The horse knows" that riders need to develop their hands one at a time.

If you have problems controling a horse while leading on the ground, then you don't belong in the saddle. If you ride your horse and can't prevent him from bolting etc., then you really need to learn how to ride with just a halter. Once you have developed those skills, you can ride and control your horse anywhere. Bit's help with refinement, but not control. Control is only found in the horses mind.

Carrie, you asked for advice about your head tossing horse and bitless bridles. I'm not certain of the details of your problems, but if you learn and practice the skills needed to ride in a halter and lead rope, you will find your own answers about the bitless bridles and headtossing matters. It doesn't come without effort, but there may be a 'better way'. If you want to be a horses leader, you must find it.

Deidre, please be assured that I wasn't speaking of anyone in particular when I posted. I'm not sure how to explain what I mean but excuse was a poor choice of words. It just seems to me that there are a lot of "previously abused" horses to be found on most forums and the problems described as being caused by the abuse are often just normal reactions from any horse.
Me, I don't worry about the horses past, just the present and I try to fix holes when I find them. Your point is well taken, it's not being used as an excuse but I do think abuse is irrelevent when dealing with a horse. "You just got to deal with the one in front of you."

"But heck, I'm just an old hacker, I don't know nothin bout that fancy ridin"


Have fun, be safe

Jack

http://www.horsesplay.us/phpBB2/index.php

 

[DeirdreBarlow]

Deidre, please be assured that I wasn't speaking of anyone in particular when I posted

Levi, no personal offence was taken , I was just stating an opinion.

"if you can't ride them with one rein, how will you handle two?". It's a very valid point and one that everybody should consider

Me, I don't worry about the horses past, just the present and I try to fix holes when I find them.

If you have problems controling a horse while leading on the ground, then you don't belong in the saddle.

If you ride your horse and can't prevent him from bolting etc., then you really need to learn how to ride with just a halter

Ummm. . . ok.
You're perfectly entitled to your own opinions on these things . But they still don't sit well with me .
I really don't know whether it's the (in my opinion) overly simplistic view of the whole horse/rider mentality and halter training.
No idea. It has it's place definately, but something makes me a bit uncomfortable about it all.

Has been interesting to read anyway .

 

[No_Angel]

It seems to me that there's one very big difference: if you're on the horse you can fall off and get hurt.

Bits and reins are part of how we communicate with the horse; maybe there's a horse who's so tuned in to his rider that he doesn't notice the scary lorry coming down the road, or the other horse in the field you're passing, or the barking dog or the hedge-trimmer; and he doesn't get enjoy his canter so much that he forgets to notice when it's time to stop .... Well if there is, he doesn't live in my field.

I wonder if anyone here has a horse like that ... If they tell me they do, maybe I'll believe it's real and not a fantasy.

We dont communicate using bits and reins with our horses, we communicate with signals, bits and reins are used to make you feel better, not the horse. If you can control your horse on the ground in a headcollar, why cant you do that from on top of him, your only asking him to do the same things? You want him to go forwards when you ask, you want him to stop when you ask and you want him to yield when you ask.
The horse your describing just sounds like an untrained horse to me, my horses have been trained so that they listen to me above what is happening around them, sometimes that doesnt work, but then I know my training isnt as effective as it should be so we practice some more.


Secondly, you cannot actively teach a horse to go on the bit without a bit Maybe it would be possible if the horse actually was a confirmed dressage horse who carried himself, but if it was a green horse? Nope. (but I guess this is only important if you wanted to ride in that style)

My horse works correctly (I hate that phrase 'on the bit') in bitless, when his hind end is working correctly and hes light in the hand, his head will go on the vertical. I dont need a bit to do that.
any why do i need poll pressure? to stop? no, my seat asks that, my reins are just there to reinforce that if needed.

 

[Sophie_Bailey]

i won't add to this (very interesting) debate but just thought i'd say my horse is in a happy wheel and its brilliant. we haven't had any problems whatsoever

 

[jenren!!]

If you can ride without relying on your reins, what do you need a bitless for?

Well i would change that to:
If you can ride without relying on your reins, what do you need a bit for?

 

[LindaAd]

First of all, as LindaAd said, its a question of safety. Good luck trying to control a horse who spooks without a bit.

<snip>

A bit is a way of communication. You don't have to be harsh with a bit, you need only be very subtle to bring your point across

Sorry, I wasn't being very clear here - I was saying you couldn't control a horse in a headcollar, not a bitless bridle. I think people do have quite a lot of control with bitless bridles, although probably not the subtlety and delicacy you have with a bit.

but riding and leading dont really differ, your asking your horse to go from signals you give him, basically stop, go and yield, we do this in hand and under saddle, you start teaching your horse from the ground while preparing it to be ridden.
We train our horses so that they listen to us rather than whats around them, so essentially if your horse is trained it should listen to your signals with no tack at all, this is what we should aim towards, if yur horse decides to go, a piece of metal in its mouth will not stop it, nor a halter on its head, its the horses training that will stop it.

The difference between "communicating with bits and reins" and "communicating with signals" is imaginary - we use the bits and reins, and the other things, to convey our signals to the horse.

Now when I'm leading the horse on the ground, the signals don't usually come from the headcollar initially - they come from my body language and my voice. The headcollar is just there as a backup, or to make things clearer if he doesn't understand straight way. Of course, riding we give body signals too, but that's much harder because it involves controlling our own body in a way that's a lot more complicated than if we're on the ground. Chances are, if the horse does something unexpected when I'm leading him, I won't fall over; if he does it when I'm riding him, I'll fall off.
Or lose my balance and give him some signal I didn't mean to give ...

Let me mention that I really don't like most hackamores/bitless bridles myself. I do find a bosal useful and wouldn't hesitate to use a soft rope hackamore, but nothing more complicated than that. Just a simple boy here, less is better.

That said, I do recommend that everybody ride their horse in a halter and lead rope. A well known western trainer says, "if you can't ride them with one rein, how will you handle two?". It's a very valid point and one that everybody should consider. "The horse knows" that riders need to develop their hands one at a time.

If you have problems controling a horse while leading on the ground, then you don't belong in the saddle. If you ride your horse and can't prevent him from bolting etc., then you really need to learn how to ride with just a halter. Once you have developed those skills, you can ride and control your horse anywhere. Bit's help with refinement, but not control. Control is only found in the horses mind.


"But heck, I'm just an old hacker, I don't know nothin bout that fancy ridin"


Have fun, be safe

http://www.horsesplay.us/phpBB2/index.php

It really makes me quite unhappy when people tell me I shouldn't be riding ....and a bit cross. What gives them the right to lay down the rules and say who should and shouldn't be riding?

In fact I can control all my horses perfectly well in a headcollar, although not instantly when they were new. But I've already explained the differences between riding in a headcollar and leading in one. I think to say "everyone should ride in a headcollar and leadrope" is foolish - at least add "in a safe enclosed space and on a horse you can trust".

No, not an untrained horse, just a real, live horse.

 

[Skyhuntress]

If any of you have pictures of your horse actively working from behind on the bit without a bit, I would love to see. I have never actually seen it done, and who knows, it might change my opinion

 

[tubby]

Sorry storm arion I disagree with you,my boy is totally manageable in his DR Cooks. Yes in all circumstances too,& in answer to the person who asked why we need a bitless bridle instead of no bridle it's because I've not got the fine tuning right.I need the help of the bitless to do lateral work & yes he does come on the "bit" & use his quarters,so I don't think that it is a case of all horses without a bit in their mouth going on the forehand.Obviously it's not going to work for everyone,nothing ever does.Oh & I forgot,my boy's mane is terrifically thick & totally untrimmed & it causes no problem at all.

 

[No_Angel]

No, not an untrained horse, just a real, live horse

I have 6 horses, so its not a fluke, its just patience and perserverance. If your horse is more interested in his surroundings it means hes not listening to you. Im actually studying this at university now, so i know that alot of other, well respected people, think in this same way.

It really gets me when people think they cannot control a horse without a bit, one of friends rode one of my horses today and was amazed at how responsive she was, in just a rope halter.

 

[DeirdreBarlow]

I totally see your point NoAngel , but as I'm reading this thread with much interest I feel I must comment here.

I sort of (though not completely ) agree with Linda (in that I think Levi's "ride in a halter" argument is a tad "fuzzy" (for want of a much better word).

But I do get a bit irritated when people say things like;
"Im actually studying this at university now, so i know that alot of other, well respected people, think in this same way."

I just think it's a bit irrelevant .
Firstly, despite having been to uni myself, I consistently meet non-graduate people who know much more about my degree subject than I do.

And secondly, I guarantee that for every knowledgable person who thinks one way, there'll be another equally as knowledgable person who thinks another way.
I don't see how knowing well educated people who share your view point is proof that your view point is correct .

 

[Rowena]

I ride my horse in a Dr Cook's synthetic bit-less (never did rub, and very easy to clean). My horse is a highly strung type, and I thought this might help him relax. It does.

I have full control but sometimes he just gets super wizzy and he has bombed off with me in it on occasion, BUT he has done so even in a bit, so I attribute this to his lively temperament (which is one of the qualities I enjoy about this horse) Sooo, here is what I do: I alternate between the bit-less (which I use for most of the time) and then when/if he gets too strong/excitable, I put him in a nathe snaffle the next day and it makes all the difference.

Its the alternation between the two that make sure he doesn't get too strong in hand. I like the bit-less because it keeps his mouth super soft. Because it is in his nature to get excitable, I use my voice to sooth him. He used to be a harness horse, so I guess that is where he learned about that. I never feel in danger because of the bit-less, and have long since realized that its a rider issue... the idea that we have more control because of a bit in the horses mouth. My own experience has shown me that a bitless is a valuable commodity in the tack room.

But one thing I have noticed is that those horses which are very 'strong' in hand (leading for instance), do not respond well in a bit-less. My horse is light in hand, just prone to getting excitable. And even so he's fine in it.

I didn't actually 'school' him in any different way in it, and interestingly enough, he responds like he does in a bit. He goes 'on the bit' properly pushing from his hind quarter (I will try and get someone to take a picture so you can check it out). All that is required is that he is going properly forward at the time, then he looks and feels just like in a bit-ted bridle. At the end of the day, I use the bit-less to keep his mouth listening nicely.

 

[JOJOBA]

Not taking sides on this argument at all, but I believe this statement;

And secondly, I guarantee that for every knowledgable person who thinks one way, there'll be another equally as knowledgable person who thinks another way.
I don't see how knowing well educated people who share your view point is proof that your view point is correct .

Is totally correct.
I hate it when people say in arguments 'Im an intelligent person' or 'Im an educated person'. Well.... 'I like to think Im pretty intelligent, and I know Im relatively educated , and I totally disagree with you, so..... touche'
For everything I read in a horse book, someone else who has never read a horse book has worked it out for themselves, or found a better way of doing it.
We'll never all agree on the bitless argument - it's for some people, it's not for others. Give it a go and see if it's for you *shrug*

xxx

 

[Skyhuntress]

And secondly, I guarantee that for every knowledgable person who thinks one way, there'll be another equally as knowledgable person who thinks another way.
I don't see how knowing well educated people who share your view point is proof that your view point is correct .

That sums its up totally, doesn't it?
Isn't there a quote that says The Horse World: Two people, three opinions

 

[india]

If any of you have pictures of your horse actively working from behind on the bit without a bit, I would love to see. I have never actually seen it done, and who knows, it might change my opinion

I've only been riding with a Dr Cooks bb for a short while and haven't yet practiced getting my lad in a good outline in it.

There are some good pictures on the link below though ......

http://www.bitlessbridle.co.uk/bitless-gallery.php

 

[Pink's lady]

ooo, an argument

For my part - I defy anyone to ride Brodie out on the roads and stop him going home when he feels like it with just a bitless. When he wants to go home you HAVE to be able to force his head back in the direction you want otherwise he's going to hurt himself and others. You can't do that with a bitless.

He is as safe as houses in the school and i would have no qualms about taking him for a gallop in just a headcollar, but I wouldn't be able to stop him whipping round without a bit. Yes, I need to use pain and discomfort, but a hell of a lot less than getting hit by a car would cause.

And the first person who suggests I spend more time working with him to stop the napping can come and take him and see if they can do any better then I managed in 8yrs with him Maybe, in 5yrs time once the napping has totally stopped, I'll try a bitless.

 

[Rowena]

For my part - I defy anyone to ride Brodie out on the roads and stop him going home when he feels like it with just a bitless. When he wants to go home you HAVE to be able to force his head back in the direction you want otherwise he's going to hurt himself and others.

I would agree with you totally, I don't think bitless works for every horse (just out of interest, how is Brodie in a halter to lead?)

I am able control my boy out in traffic, but I will admit that when his blood is up I have sometimes had to resort to some sharp pulls to get his attention. This is where the theory on bitless doesn't quite hold water for me . But once the horse starts to feel like he can pull a bit, I go back to a bit, and then peace and harmony return. In this horses case I rely on 'desensitization' as a means of schooling...Holy cow! not desensitization of his mouth, but desensitization as far as only exposing him to spooky stuff in small manageable doses. When I've done that, I've been able to walk cool-as-a-cucumber past very scary stuff in the bitless without any problem. But I still maintain that using the bitless has greatly improved his mouth. There was a time I could hardly find brakes in a Pelham, now (post bitless) a soft bendable Nathe has more controll than the Pelham did!

Oh, and as for the pain thing... dont let anyone tell you yoou cant cause pain in a bitless - especially those thin rope-type ones. I've looked at horses with grooves in their heads as a result!!!

Perhaps the desensitization thing is the secret...?
After all think about what people can do in a neck string...
The hoses temperament surely has to have an NB role to play here...

 

[Pink's lady]

(just out of interest, how is Brodie in a halter to lead?)

Fabulous - never ever pulls, walks with his nose at my hips. Doesn't really need one. And he's only in a curved french link bit with cheeks and doesn't need that either 99% of the time. His brakes are fabulous (at all times - he's a lazy sod who's not a fan of going fast:rolleyes ) and steering great WHEN HE WANTS TO LISTEN.

But that's the important bit (no pun intended) - the bitless relies entires on the horses good will and then being willing to listen. When teh horses switches off or gets excited and decideds you're much less interesting then teh bitless theory falls appart. Yes, I causes a horse pain by pulling on their mouths to get their attention but it cuts through the block and makes them do what I want - which is essential to keeping them and me safe.

If anyone has a horse that always listens to them 110% of the time, esp out hacking, then either they're lying or they have a type of horse I've not met yet. It's fine in the school or out hacking on farm tracks/countryside (switching off and not listening for a while isn't the end of the world) but a couple of seconds of not-listening could kill and horse or a human on the roads.

 

[Alex]

A horse is roughly a 500kg animal. A bit (or a bitless) is not going to stop 500kg pulling/shying/taking off if they choose to do it.

I don't believe a bit gives you any more control in such a situation than a bitless.

 

[Afellpony]

Interersting thread this. With horses doing so much more roadwork, would a bitless be legal on the road? Personally, I dont do roadwork but know couple of peeps who do ride on the road - one bitless.