Building Friendship.....Ideas please

[laceyfreckle]

Thought I'd see what idea's you all have.

Harvey is not a 'people pony'. He believes he's a work pony and he likes to work, in fact he gets a bit miffed if you faff around and don't just 'get on with it'. He is like this with everything. He doesn't like being groomed (may be due to a skin prob though) and he doesn't like being fussed over.

He does canter over to me every time I go to the field but if you faff too long catching him etc he gets a bit naffed off. By this I mean he'll pin his ears, wander off, tighten his face and generally look less then amused and threaten to bite or kick. He hasn't actually bitten or kicked for a month or two now just threatened, which is better.

We do groundwork as well as ridden work but it isn't making 'rapport' between us good enough. With a 'people pony' I would just spend time there in the field or grooming but Harvey would either ignore you and wander off or basically look at you like you should get off your bum and go do something other then sitting there annoying him. If stabled with or without feed like I do other jobs he will headshake and threaten to bite and pull faces.

Harvey has always been like this snce I've had him and probably has been all his life.

Anyway so Ideas please as to build rapport/friendship with him.

I am thinking about taking treats down sometimes? Haven't done this before as he is very very food orientated and can be aggressive around food. Also I'm not keen on encouraging him to mug me or making him any more nippy but can't really think of anything else?


My other pony is the complete opposite

 

[Dark Storm]

Have you thought of doing join up with him?
If you're not sure how to go about this, go on the intelligent horsemanship site, and you might either get ideas, or find some one who can help Having experienced this sort of way before, with my youngster, I was amazed at what difference even just 5 mins with an IH instructor can do.. it may just be the corner you need to turn things around...

 

[laceyfreckle]

Have you thought of doing join up with him?
If you're not sure how to go about this, go on the intelligent horsemanship site, and you might either get ideas, or find some one who can help Having experienced this sort of way before, with my youngster, I was amazed at what difference even just 5 mins with an IH instructor can do.. it may just be the corner you need to turn things around...

I have had a IH instructor out (for general and for feet handling help) and although she was helpful her general feeling was one that he is dominant and pushy. Her ideas also in general didn't really sit well with the QS programme I am doing as in she was skeptical of most other NH methods). He did let me 'do' things the same as when working on the ground or ridden anyway but he isn't 100% 'happy' with it. Whenever he is 'worked' even on the ground, or at liberty he is better tempered BUT he still would choose not to be near me just 'being'. If he was 'working' he would though, does that make sense?

I've never had a horse that only likes to work ...........I've had more the other way round,,,,prefer to not work and be groomed etc instead lol.

I want him to be happy around me when I'm not 'doing' anything with him, or simply when I go to catch him to be happy to see me, be caught and be brought in even if he's not being ridden etc

 

[learningcurve]

When I bought Bertie he didn't like to be fussed at all, he wouldn't do anything nasty, just moved away.
I kept trying to find something he enjoyed and after about 8 months had a break through, he likes having the top of his eyes stroked, sends him to sleep.
After discovering this he started to follow me around in the field, asking me to do it, we then worked on other parts of his head, gradually working down neck, to the rest of his body. He now enjoys a good old scratch.
Bertie is never going to be a people pony, I think he is too introvert, but has come out of his shell.
Bertie also hasn't got much of a clue about mutal grooming with other horses, much to the disgust of my daughters pony, who would groom all day.

 

[laceyfreckle]

When I bought Bertie he didn't like to be fussed at all, he wouldn't do anything nasty, just moved away.
I kept trying to find something he enjoyed and after about 8 months had a break through, he likes having the top of his eyes stroked, sends him to sleep.
After discovering this he started to follow me around in the field, asking me to do it, we then worked on other parts of his head, gradually working down neck, to the rest of his body. He now enjoys a good old scratch.
Bertie is never going to be a people pony, I think he is too introvert, but has come out of his shell.
Bertie also hasn't got much of a clue about mutal grooming with other horses, much to the disgust of my daughters pony, who would groom all day.

Thanks, I will try looking for a 'sweet spot' as well....thats a good idea Harvey is quite bonded to my filly but he tends to look for her for security if there's anything scary but is dominant to her otherwise (although will share dinner/hay with her nicely even though he's food aggressive to people) They love to groom each other but Harvey isn't keen on it for long (although he is itchy and does have a skin problem anyway)

Harvey is 'better' then he was in terms of friendliness (ok, not sure you could get worse in grumpiness lol) but still isn't 'friendly'.

 

[Native Lover]

My mare sounds a bit like your boy, she is always pulling faces and occasionally threatens to bite but has never actually bitten,she is also very dominant and food agressive and even though lovely to lead,pick feet up etc doesn't like to be fussed much.We are working on ground work and the 7 games not sure it will improve her much in the cuddly/friendly stakes but we are having fun learning all this stuff

 

[newforest]

I have had a IH instructor out (for general and for feet handling help) and although she was helpful her general feeling was one that he is dominant and pushy. Her ideas also in general didn't really sit well with the QS programme I am doing as in she was skeptical of most other NH methods)

An instructor who is skeptical about other methods would have me walking away and saying goodbye. A good instructor whoever they are taught by should be able to see each pony as an indivudual and use any method to help the owner with the pony.

It sounds to me like you have a little introverted chap who doesn't want to play, doesn't want a fuss and doesn't want to interact with you either. They are all different, but if if you can get him to come out of his shell he will improve. He's not sounding dominant, he's sounding a little bored but that's his nature. If there is nothing in it for him he's not interested. You can make some chances but his personality is pretty much as is.

There will be a tickle spot you may have to look all over him for it, but it will be there.

My chap is the playful one and loves attention, me, me, me, me, stops to be stroked by passers by, looks at his reflection! Luckily i like a chap like this and i do loads of games to keep him busy, whereas as i can see your chap possibly sighs and thinks oh gosh do we have to online, but ridden he's in his element?

 

[laceyfreckle]

My mare sounds a bit like your boy, she is always pulling faces and occasionally threatens to bite but has never actually bitten,she is also very dominant and food agressive and even though lovely to lead,pick feet up etc doesn't like to be fussed much.We are working on ground work and the 7 games not sure it will improve her much in the cuddly/friendly stakes but we are having fun learning all this stuff

Yes we are doing this www.quantumsavvy.com We've passed our skills test and short range yields (all pretty much the 7 games) and he loves doing them and it has improved us working together BUT it hasn't improved the grumpiness or faces...well it has a bit as Harvey did actually properly bite and properly kick and mean it but now only threatens. The only other odd thing about Harvey that I haven't seen in other horses is he is at his most ameanable and 'happiest' after he has been worked, he doesn't mind a fuss then and his face/eye looks softer but I don't want to have to work him for him to be happy lol.

My problem is I'm now doing my approach assignment for QS which is a very simple catch the horse by standing at its shoulder, touch horse all over and pick all four feet up...now I can do all of this and have put the assignment in 3 times but haven't passed it as Harvey stands still but pulls faces, pins his ears and generally looks p****d off about it although I think some of the face pulling is habit. He hates being touched all over although will put up with it so he doesn't relish being caught for it either.

 

[Native Lover]

Yes we are doing this www.quantumsavvy.com We've passed our skills test and short range yields (all pretty much the 7 games) and he loves doing them and it has improved us working together BUT it hasn't improved the grumpiness or faces...well it has a bit as Harvey did actually properly bite and properly kick and mean it but now only threatens. The only other odd thing about Harvey that I haven't seen in other horses is he is at his most ameanable and 'happiest' after he has been worked, he doesn't mind a fuss then and his face/eye looks softer but I don't want to have to work him for him to be happy lol.

My problem is I'm now doing my approach assignment for QS which is a very simple catch the horse by standing at its shoulder, touch horse all over and pick all four feet up...now I can do all of this and have put the assignment in 3 times but haven't passed it as Harvey stands still but pulls faces, pins his ears and generally looks p****d off about it although I think some of the face pulling is habit. He hates being touched all over although will put up with it so he doesn't relish being caught for it either.

I have just accepted that Faye is a grumpy, moody mare,she pins her ears back but shouldn't be in pain as she has had her teeth,back and feet done since she came to us in the summer she was in a bit of a state and not sure shes has the best of lives in the past. I am trying to learn for fun and to improve our relationship so not bothered about passing assesments.She is proving a good nanny role model to the foals though

 

[Flipo's Mum]

There will be a tickle spot you may have to look all over him for it, but it will be there.

Newforest, I'm interested - stupid question though - is the tickle spot you speak of in the literal or metaphorical sense?!

 

[laceyfreckle]

An instructor who is skeptical about other methods would have me walking away and saying goodbye. A good instructor whoever they are taught by should be able to see each pony as an indivudual and use any method to help the owner with the pony.

It sounds to me like you have a little introverted chap who doesn't want to play, doesn't want a fuss and doesn't want to interact with you either. They are all different, but if if you can get him to come out of his shell he will improve. He's not sounding dominant, he's sounding a little bored but that's his nature.

There will be a tickle spot you may have to look all over him for it, but it will be there.

Sounds about right

He does get bored very easily, ridden wise if he gets bored he gets naughty. If he isn't bored then he's a easy(ish) ride. He is a pony that has to be 'ridden' rather then sat on which is worrying me slightly for when we get to passenger lessons. (which should be soon as mounting, back up and lateral flexion in halter is going ok)

He is often described as dominant and will push you to see if he can take over but he can also be very polite eg he will challenge you if you stand near a feed bucket but if you stand your ground and swing a lead rope he will repsect that and wander off without bother.

He seems to 'want' a fuss and likes to watch Piccolo having a fuss. He'll often come over and reach his nose out to touch me but then seems to remember that he doesn't like that so screws his nose up and wanders off but only wanders off a few feet away and then watches Piccolo having a fuss.

It's almost like he tries to read into what it means....he can't seem to understand that a fuss is just that but he must be meant to 'do' something.

He does love his work though and he seems to get a lot from mastering something new eg...he was almost as happy as me when we managed to get sideways going on the ground!

It wasn't a usual instrucor that I use but I had used her before before I started the QS and she had been helpful with Piccolo, I was a bit taken aback as to her comments about other programmes though (and she really didn't like my rope halter, saying it was useless) and I probably won't be using her again due to that.

I do have a riding instructor too who is the opposite. He is traditionally (BHS) trained but has a good attitude towards the QS too and tries to work towards a well rounded pony rather then a particular method. He is very very helpful with ridden work and we have come a really long way due to that.

 

[laceyfreckle]

I have just accepted that Faye is a grumpy, moody mare,she pins her ears back but shouldn't be in pain as she has had her teeth,back and feet done since she came to us in the summer she was in a bit of a state and not sure shes has the best of lives in the past. I am trying to learn for fun and to improve our relationship so not bothered about passing assesments.She is proving a good nanny role model to the foals though

Harvey was similar, he came from a dealers but don't think he has had the best of times. He did have bad muscle wastage but this has all been corrected now and like yours has had teeth done etc. His skin does irritate him but I can't do much about that until the allergy testing is done.

The assignments are mainly for me more then Harvey, I quite like structure and find the programme easier (for me) as it has set out homework and set out assignments. Of course you don't have to do them and you can add things, take out things etc but I find it motivates ME to do it lol (and helps me know I'm gettting it right)

 

[laceyfreckle]

My chap is the playful one and loves attention, me, me, me, me, stops to be stroked by passers by, looks at his reflection! Luckily i like a chap like this and i do loads of games to keep him busy, whereas as i can see your chap possibly sighs and thinks oh gosh do we have to online, but ridden he's in his element?

Piccolo is like Jack She ran off with my credit card she nicked out of my purse that was in a carrier bag the other day.....thought that was great fun. She loves everybody and everything!

Harvey loves doing online work and ridden work, he loves anything thats well, work. He likes to do different things though so you have to mix it up a little. His attitude after groundwork and ridden work is 100% better but I don't want to have to work him to get that. He just doesn't like being fussed. Once he has a halter on or tack on he is happy that he is going to be worked.
Ridden wise he has to be kept busy though, no wandering around aimlessly it has to be 'schooling' or 'jumping' or 'something'. Hacking is still a bit um, interesting.

Also just to add: His temprement is better if he is worked either groundwork or ridden every day or at least 5 days a week less then that and he starts getting genreally more grumpy and aggressive again but reverts back once he's regularly 'working' again

 

[newforest]

Newforest, I'm interested - stupid question though - is the tickle spot you speak of in the literal or metaphorical sense?!

Literal sense, i help out with a pony who is in his shell and won't look at you, seems very switched off, but once you've found "the spot" he changes and wants more. It's right up under the chin, i did have to search for it. It's a trust issue the spot is nice but he almost feels he can't trust but wants to trust.

Does Harvey have the nervous nose? A bit tight and pinched at the ends, that's sign of anxiety and to some a fuss can be scary. We are predators, and i don't know about you but a lion massaging my feet would not make me very happy. Horses are on the menu and they know it.

I didn't get my online 3 as Jack looked bored, made no sense as i got 3++ at libery in half acre of space. Fact is Jack has moved on now, and maybe if you are doing the games you need to be making them more interesting? Don't get stuck on level 1 move on.

 

[laceyfreckle]

Literal sense, i help out with a pony who is in his shell and won't look at you, seems very switched off, but once you've found "the spot" he changes and wants more. It's right up under the chin, i did have to search for it. It's a trust issue the spot is nice but he almost feels he can't trust but wants to trust.

Does Harvey have the nervous nose? A bit tight and pinched at the ends, that's sign of anxiety and to some a fuss can be scary. We are predators, and i don't know about you but a lion massaging my feet would not make me very happy. Horses are on the menu and they know it.

I didn't get my online 3 as Jack looked bored, made no sense as i got 3++ at libery in half acre of space. Fact is Jack has moved on now, and maybe if you are doing the games you need to be making them more interesting? Don't get stuck on level 1 move on.

Yes he has the 'nervous nose' tight and pinched with super flared nostrils a lot of the time. It's his 'annoyed face'. He doesn't do it when ridden now and only really does it when hacking, doing something scary or when your brushing him etc. I think he feels better when he knows whats expected of him eg. doesn't like a fuss because it's not asking him to do anything. We have just moved on to a new set of homework which I'm hoping will be less 'boring', the trailer loading stuff is nearly there now so after next few days won't come back to that for a little while. Some of the stuff we'll be doing now (as well as still trying to do the damn approach) will be mounting and mounting procedures, longer range sideways, direct and in direct one rein riding, bending to a stop, back up and passenger lessons. Now the ground is good this will be as well as my 'normal' riding lessons once a week which includes a bit of jumping.

I found it odd that really the approach should be easier then the short range skills test but I haven't passed them in that order

 

[newforest]

Think just depends as my one rein riding is still not as good as my carrot stick and string. I got bit fed up with the rein so took it off and just never put it back on. Passenger was ok it actually got Jack thinking more forwards and he's much lighter to ride now i don't use my leg unless i need to.

I want to do my ridden assessment i have started it but there are about 30 movements, so glad gets marked off as you go. But last time instructor couldn't get the yields ridden only on the ground, it waas too techincal personally for that level. In a dressage test i'd still have passed!

I enjoyed moving onto the 22ft line and the 45 is great for circling.

 

[laceyfreckle]

Think just depends as my one rein riding is still not as good as my carrot stick and string. I got bit fed up with the rein so took it off and just never put it back on. Passenger was ok it actually got Jack thinking more forwards and he's much lighter to ride now i don't use my leg unless i need to.

I want to do my ridden assessment i have started it but there are about 30 movements, so glad gets marked off as you go. But last time instructor couldn't get the yields ridden only on the ground, it waas too techincal personally for that level. In a dressage test i'd still have passed!

I enjoyed moving onto the 22ft line and the 45 is great for circling.

See now stick and string still makes me go at the thought....my thought processes are just about coping with halter and one rein (there's a reason I put the martingale on his normal bridle) so far he has been very good though. Harvey is quite green with aids in normal riding so has no idea as to what sideways means on board (although has recently learnt it on the ground) and has only just been learning that seat not reins means stop or back up..please.

So, what level are you up to now then NF? Sounds like you and Jack are doing well

 

[Native Lover]

Harvey was similar, he came from a dealers but don't think he has had the best of times. He did have bad muscle wastage but this has all been corrected now and like yours has had teeth done etc. His skin does irritate him but I can't do much about that until the allergy testing is done.

The assignments are mainly for me more then Harvey, I quite like structure and find the programme easier (for me) as it has set out homework and set out assignments. Of course you don't have to do them and you can add things, take out things etc but I find it motivates ME to do it lol (and helps me know I'm gettting it right)

Thanks for the link by the way,QS i haven't heard of, but i suppose a long our journey we will look at a lot of the different approaches. I have just started with IH but will look at all the different ideas eventually. And i will book some lessons when i get some time,ie the spring when there are not as many chores to do and lighter nights.

Our horses probably had similar past lives by the sound of it. I decided to let her have some time being a horse,so she now lives out 24/7 and other than grooming and a little bit of ground work she is turned away for the winter. Bossing my herd about so she is very happy and always comes up when we go in the field if she is not already waiting for us to get there

 

[Luna Corona]

Have you thought about getting someone to do some shiatsu on him? It can help with emotional issues as well as physical ones and Harvey sounds an ideal patient.

 

[dragonfarmgirl]

My Haffy mare was totally uninterested in human contact and in searching for ways to get some sort of bond someone on here recommended Carolyn Resnick. Her method is on her website and is all about creating the bond between horse and person so that you understand and respect each other, no matter what training method you use.
She places great emphasis on spending undemanding time with your horse. I know you said he doesn't respond but you could try biasing the situation in your favour. Do you have access to a school or small paddock for an hour at a time ? If so, figure out the best place i.e shaded, sheltered etc then put down a pile of nice hay. Get yourself a chair (near the hay)and something to occupy yourself e.g book, ipod, shopping list then sit down and TOTALLY IGNORE the horse. He is free to eat, move around and ignore you but eventually (even if it takes an hr a day for 3 months !) he will get curious and come over to check you out. When he does, continue ignoring him, let him sniff you, chair, book and only interact if he gets pushy. Then you can either gently push him away or you move your chair away, depending on how sensitive he is. The idea is to be like a herd mate. He is learning that you are there for him, without any demands, but that if he wants to be with you he must be respectful.
I found that this worked like a miracle with Daisy and, after she came to check me out she hung around grazing near me (we were in a field) and grazed nearer each day. This was when she stayed around and let me stroke and scratch her (without being held in any way) and enabled me to find her sweet spot (forelock and down both sides of her mane at the same time).
This was the first step in turning our relationship around and I still treasure the first time we stood there grooming each other as one of the most magical moments in my life. I know it is a big investment timewise, especially in this weather, but even 15 mins a day would help and you can carry on with whatever training etc you are already doing.
It is hard to expain it all, and there are other things to do re-balance dominance, fear,confidence, trust etc but if you need more info check out her website. Some of it is a bit 'spiritual' for me but the basics really work. If you need any more info feel free to PM me.
Daisy and I are now using Parelli and having a great time but I would never have known who she really was without spending hrs with her in the field and I still go out and sit with her. I think sometimes she does need to know I am there just for her ( I ignore the other horses) and not wanting anything from her.
Sorry this is so long, but it takes alot of explaining and I am still full of too much Xmas food and my brain is struggling. Good luck, Sarah