'Bullying' Horses

[Yann]

Rather than sidetrack another thread I thought I'd start a new one... My question is whether it is possible to do 'NH' with horses in a completely gentle and non confrontational way and never have to 'go there' with pressure at any time.

My conclusion was that it wasn't, even the most apparently low key trainers like Mark Rashid and Mike Peace are more than prepared to be very black and white when they need to be. For example this might be when first establishing what's what with a pushy horse that's trying to walk through them. I've never been at all keen on the 'horses do it to each other so it's OK if we do' idea but surely you need to be able to take control of the horse's feet in a given situation one way or another. It's what happens after that that makes the difference.

Any thoughts?

 

[MelanieD]

It depends a lot on the individual horse. Some can be trained the 'nice' way, with the worst you have to do being out-stubborning them or sending away. But have known some of the more stroppy and opinionated variety that have needed the smacked botty to learn there are consequences and they need to pay some attention to the silly little human before they'll start to pay attention and cooperate with the nice approach.

Generally I'll play nice and be patient for most things but I will bite and kick back, those are the two things I don't consider acceptable at all because its dangerous and pony is going to learn there are consequences for aiming feet or teeth at me. If its a youngster trying it out or a reaction to something scary or unpleasant and forgetting the manners for a moment then being loud and stroppy and sending away might do the job, but if that gets a 'bovvered?' then some form of smacked botty can be necessary and I'd much rather do that than end up with a horse that thinks its acceptable to kick out at people.

 

[Francis Burton]

Rather than sidetrack another thread I thought I'd start a new one... My question is whether it is possible to do 'NH' with horses in a completely gentle and non confrontational way and never have to 'go there' with pressure at any time.

Completely? Never? No, I don't think so. There will always be situations and horses where you may need to use more intense pressure/force, or where an element of confrontation can't be avoided. The attitude to 'going there' may be what differentiates trainers and styles. Some may regard it as a necessary evil (but an evil nonetheless); others may consider it an essential and entirely acceptable element. It's a matter of degree, rather than a question of whether you do or don't. Some people are happier -- and therefore more likely -- to slide up the sliding scale than others.

Personally, I love gentleness and hate confrontation. To me, a light, sensitive touch looks beautiful, and bullying horses looks ugly - but I do realize such beauty (and the ugliness) are in the eye of the beholder to a large extent!

My conclusion was that it wasn't, even the most apparently low key trainers like Mark Rashid and Mike Peace are more than prepared to be very black and white when they need to be. For example this might be when first establishing what's what with a pushy horse that's trying to walk through them.

One measure of good horsepeople is their ability to punish a behaviour with exactly the right amount of vigour (and no more than that), at exactly the right time, and without anger or desire for retribution. A good horseperson doesn't go on applying the punisher for a fraction of a second longer than necessary.

I've never been at all keen on the 'horses do it to each other so it's OK if we do' idea

It's a silly argument, and a dangerous one. It can be used to legitimize actions which are downright abusive. Horses have sex with each other, but that doesn't make it acceptable for us to! Ok, that's an extreme example, but it shows where that kind of 'logic' can take you.

but surely you need to be able to take control of the horse's feet in a given situation one way or another. It's what happens after that that makes the difference.

I think you're right. Your point about what happens after is a very good one, and I hope others will comment on this further.

Moving feet can be considered a means to an end, or an end in itself. It is impossible to imagine working with horses (in any useful or meaningful way) without the need to move their feet ever arising. It is something that just has to be done. To my mind, the purpose of moving horses feet is to determine where you want them to be physically in relation to you (and where you want to be physically in relation to them). I'm rather less keen on the notion of using it to change attitudes - i.e. as a means to an end. Of course, it is entirely possible to use it in that way, and I wouldn't denigrate those who do routinely unless it was applied excessively or in a domineering or abusive way.

 

[katefarmer]

My question is whether it is possible to do 'NH' with horses in a completely gentle and non confrontational way and never have to 'go there' with pressure at any time.

Let's put NH on the side for a moment and say can one handle horses in a completely gentle and non confrontational way.... or come to that, is it possible to handle other PEOPLE in a completely gentle and non confrontational way? I guess it depends how you define confrontational. If you are never going to assert yourself at all, yes, you can be completely non-confrontational, but you won't get far with either people or horses.

I think most types of NH aim to be gentle and non-confrontational, but how successful you are at that also depends on how good you are at it. The better you read the horse, and the quicker you react, the more gentle and non-confrontational you can be. A good horse-person (NH or otherwise), I believe, will always strive towards being as non confrontational as possible - but if you are a bit slow, or miss a few cues, you will find you need more pressure to make your point.

Same as people, really. If you can identify a potential conflict early, and defuse and deflect it, it can be resolved without there really being a conflict. If you let someone get into their stride in an arguement, it becomes very messy very quickly!

There was an item on TV the other night about what was rather toe-curlingly called a "School for Horse Whisperers". They showed a horse in a round pen and the senior "Whisperer" turning the horse with some (to me!!) very confrontational and predatory body language and a lot of rope slapping. How miraculous - she turned the horse without touching it.. ... of course her body language was screaming at it... but Joe Public won't notice that.... and she undoubtedly thinks she's being gentle and non-confrontational.

Now, 10 years ago, I'd have been impressed by that myself - but now I know I can be so much lighter and softer if I watch the horse and get the timing right. Then I watch my mentor, Richard, and realize that in comparison, I'm about as subtle as a charging elephant - he's REALLY good.

So - to come back to your question, Yann, completely gentle and non-confrontational, probably not. At some point the horse is going to have a thought you want to re-direct, and that in a sense, is a confrontation - however small. Extremely gentle and non-confrontational, yes - but it's not down to the method (NH or not, or any particular brand on NH), but rather how hard we work at getting better, faster and more sensitive ourselves.

The horses are already there. They can "feel" a change in the lead mare's attitude when she's on the other side of the field, and I am pretty sure that however sensitive we get - the horse will still beat us every time in the "picking up subtle changes" stakes!

 

[Chilli]

I think its interesting that people never consider that a horse is, for example 10 times the weight we are and as such a playfull bite or kick from them can/will seriously hurt/injur us. (Not forgetting biteing and kicking are perfectly natural horse behaviour/comunication)

Conversly a hard smack or kick from us is barely a slap on the back to them, now that doesn't mean i think you should, IMO any interaction/comunication should start with the lightest touch and build up if required.

You could compair that to slapping an adult on the back and what that same smack would do to a baby or small child and vice versa.

It's also interesting (to me) that humans can have the opinion "horses are quite rough with each other but we know a better way", in all the time horses have been in existance don't think they have ever caused any creature to be extinct or comit genicide, so i'm not sure humans have a better way.

Seems to me all the techniques like moving a horse's feet are learnt from/ copied from horses natural behaviour and things like hitting with a stick, tieing up, restraining etc are mans idea.

I think i prefer the way horses are than people, even if that means being firmer on occasion that some people like to themselves, saying that if you manage to get a relationship with a horse thats similar (in appearance to us) to a relationship between two horses it's a fine line between being dangerous and fabuless, especially when a horse is running and playing with you like another horse and not alowing for your frailty.

IMO

 

[EquiBabe]

IMHO bullying and being assertive are 2 different things. I dont like the alpha forms of training but also disagree with being a walkover. You need to build a respect between you and sometimes that means being assertive or even standing up to your horse. Thats not bullying though.

I cant see any point in increaseing pressure if the horse doesnt understand why not just ask another way. Bullying shouldnt have any part of training the horse.

 

[Bling]

Depends on the horse.
That said, because of my age and sissiness, I consider myself pretty non-confontational in that I try never to start an argument I can't win. That doesn't seem to leave much, because the only effective device I have is restraint: my horse might be penned, tied, or un-rewarded (a horse looking for her feed but not getting it, as I'm waiting for her to find her feed bucket first before going in to feed). But as for small slaps with the end of the rope, I don't think that's a "confrontation" as much as an aid to learning a command. (I do a lot of verbals.) So far, I've been lucky. The worst thing is, my methods is very slow!