Carrot Stick Force??

NoviceNic

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May 7, 2003
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I am having a problem accepting that I should tap my horse with the carrot stick on his face. :eek: Whilst it is just Captain and I practising I use a floppy schooling whip. So the force is not as dramatic. :) When the trainer showed me how to get him to move around she used the carrot stick and tapped him on his bridge of his nose. This is the hardest part of his face and gave quite a clunk.:( Then it wasnt so clunky as she went more for the softer parts. Of course he now only needs the stick to come toward his face and he moves to the side but I am struggling with what I feel is hitting him on the face as I dont want him head shy. I also watched her pushing the rope at his face. This doesnt touch him and he moves away. When I told the trainer that I am having a problem with the carrot stick she told me that another horse would bite or kick him to get out of the way. Am I being too soft? Is there anything else I can use?
 
Don't know what training method this is, PP by the sound.

I would never tap a horse on his face, the most a face gets is a rub with a hand.....unless it is a vicious attack with teeth, then I will smack a nosey. But it has to be malicious.

I use a stick to give a horse a cue to turn, but it never makes contact on his, or near his face.
 
Horses don't usually hit each other in the face, and IMHO neither should we.

You trainer may have left something very important out in what she said, or maybe you forgot to mention it. Another horse will ONLY bite or kick if the horse in question has failed to respond to non-tactile cues. There are usually several non-contact signals before a bite or kick, and we should also only use a tactile signal ourselves as a last resort if the horse has not responded to body language cues.

The crucial "move over and out of my space" area is above the eye, and anything moving in this area will usually stimulate the horse to move over. The first cue I use is looking intently into this area (hard eyes, if that means anything to you! :) ) then, if the horse doesn't move, I generally use my hands in a sort of "rearing stallion" movement. If it still doesn't move over, I use the heel of my hand to give it an assertive, but not hard, cuff under the ear. This is where another horse would bite. This link shows what I mean.

http://www.harmony-project.net/home.aspx?user=katefarmer#respect


I don't usually use a carrot (or any other sort of stick), as the idea is to get the horse responding to the posture, but some people do find them helpful to help create more space. If you find it works with a schooling whip, I'd say that's fine, but always keep in mind that it is your POSTURE the horse should respond to, not the stick. After a few goes, the horse should move away from just a "move away" posture and maybe a hand waving above the eye. (I might use a stick with a plastic bag on it if I need a bit more reach or space for an exceptionally large horse, or a pushy stallion or similar - but only if really necessary, and only to create movement and if necessary contact in the area above the eye.)

There are lots of different NH techniques out there, and some use more force than others. The thing to keep in mind is that you want to use as little pressure as possible, so decide what your first cue is going to be, and make sure that is always there first before you go to anything else.

Hope that helps!
 
the carrot stick she told me that another horse would bite or kick him to get out of the way

On the face? I can only imagine this happening in very stressed anxious horses. Horses move very politely around each other, even in the restricted space of a paddock, unless they are very hungry and there is food or a person bearing food. If they don't move politely around each other, they indicate their intentions to move using very subtle ear movements (my OH said the other day "they must think we've got paralysed ears") and changes in body posture.

Biting and kicking are a long way down the scale, I would think, just as hitting and pushing are a long way down the scale for us (when we walk down the street, we move politely around people. People pass you on the correct side because you use practically imperceptible eye movements to indicate which side you intend to pass them on. If they don't get out of the way, you say "excuse me". If they ignore that, you might touch them to get their attention. Personally, I'd be avoiding prodding unless I wanted to start a fight ;-) but then I do live in Glasgow...)

If you're not comfortable about the advice, don't follow it :) Maybe think what you could do instead? (It does sound as though you've already done this).
 
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Isnt the idea of a carrot stick that they move towards it for a reward, like, er....a carrot? Or is that just in clicker training? I must say that when clicker training Oscar to load I have often felt like whacking him over the head with his carrot stick, but have taken a deep breath and refrained!:eek: :rolleyes: I dont know much about other methods of NH training though.....
 
No wonder there's so many confused ruddy horses out there! I'm confused. Whatever happened to common sense?

Target sticks, carrot sticks, rope lines, rope headcollars, so much info, so much money to spend.

Most of our lot do what we ask without a headcollar, chin hairs are sufficient! ;)
 
I think I may have alluded to the possibilty of this sort of dilemma arising when you first mentioned this trainer. As Kate F says there are lots of different methods and what one handler is comfortable with another won't be suitable for the next. I certainly wouldn't be.
 
It is a mix of training methods from what I she has explained. She rides western and trains western. Does PP mean Pat Parelli?? She starts by moving the stick around to ask him to move away from it. Then if he ignores she ups the pressure by swishing the stick around and then up to tapping him on the face. It isnt a full blown smack on the face but nevertheless she does tap him with it. The minute he does as he is asked the pressure of the stick is stopped. Thus Captain gets what he has to do without then being tapped with it. I just see the look in his eye and the way his head raises and he starts to tantrum. Levi/Jack explains everything so well. He seems to understand that Captain will tantrum as he has been alpha for 2 yrs. Please dont think he is getting beaten with a stick. Just I am uncomfortable with him being tapped in the face with it. So wanted to see if there was any other way.

Kate - I am going to put your book on my Xmas list. :)
 
I think I may have alluded to the possibilty of this sort of dilemma arising when you first mentioned this trainer. As Kate F says there are lots of different methods and what one handler is comfortable with another won't be suitable for the next. I certainly wouldn't be.

Yann I have always kept your excellant piece of advise in the back of my mind. Which is what has prompted me to ask the question. :)

Is there any sort of Demo that I can go and see to find out exactly how much pressure or force is acceptable??? Just I am doing so well with him but I dont want to be a bully.
 
Novice Nick,
I wrote a reply to your other post, but didn't post it. I think I will now. And hope that nothing in it will upset you or anyone else.

I had guessed what you were doing was Parelli influenced because of the carrot stick. But it also sounded very like what I had seen Richard Maxwell do at a demo two weeks ago. And I was really interested in your post.
But no (since you ask) he didn't use a stick to touch the horse. He used twirling the end of the rope. And that was only to start with. Later he used hand signals, reinforced by twirling the end of the rope.

He explained that he had altered the way he trained horses. He was older. Masculine youth and strength had its limitations. He wanted to survive to old age, working with horses and wanted his methods to be available to his clients many of whom were women.

Far from touching the horse with a stick, he said he was against touching the horse at all (when you are on the ground), even with a hand to get it to move over. He says when push comes to shove, a horse is stronger than any man, and once the horse discovers that it is stronger than its owner and doesn't have to move when told, you are in a dead end. The horse has won.

But the following is what I wrote in reply to your other update.
Of course, I didn't know about the carrot stick aspect then. But I the rest holds good. My view is that most of us grown ups, have to learn what we need from professionals, and yet retain the freedom and responsibility to adapt or try to modify anything that troubles us or we don't like. So you do absolutely right to ask about the stick in Captain's face.

Great update.The points 2 and 3 are particularly interesting as that is what I saw Richard Maxwell do. Will be good to know how it goes for you as an "owner" rather than a celebrated clinician?

This is not the classical way I learned to lunge, but Maxwell seemed to suggest it might make fewer physical demands on the lunger? Remember the other thread where Dummer and drummer and I were needing strength to hold a circling horse?
Whereas, if the horse is taught to turn his rear end away from you, or change direction when he declines to stop, there eventually shouldn't be a pull on one's arms?
Maxwell didn't use a whip or stick by the way. Just twirled the end of the rope instead. Just another thing to make it easier for clumsy women like me as there is less gear to drop or get tangled?

I wonder whether you manage to send him away to right and left while walking to the field? If I were you, I wouldn't leave that out? This asking for and getting movement is (theoretically) the training that will ensure the horse responds promptly to aids for transitions when riding? e.g. no more bucking and protest like you recently described riding Captain through?

We are not used to thinking of slow responses from a healthy horse with a good rider as insubordination. But that seems to be the current idea? And from what you say, it sounds as if your trainer is right onto this?

It is one thing watching an expert do it. What's really interesting is to see how it goes with you. Because we all know you are working hard and doing the best any owner could.
So please keep up the reports.
 
Nic, there have been lots of debates about this very issue here in the past, some of them related to Parelli, and some not :) I personally think the answer is quite simple, if you're uncomfortable with the level of pressure that's being used then that's how much is too much. I have to say most practitioners I'm aware of (even PNH?) wouldn't use a stick on the horse's face.

Please don't think I'm pushing a particular method, because I'm not, but I do wonder if you'd be more comfortable with the sort of instruction you'd get from Garry Bosworth? Why not try him for an hour, at worst it'll just give you a second opinion? :)
 
how much force is 'acceptable' varies so much between horses and people. i know people who think the amount of force i use is excessive, i know others who think i am a wet lettuce.
the bottom line is that you have to be comfortable with it. you will not be sucessful using a training method or level of force as a matter of course you are not happy with. i have given a horse a wallop on occasion - it's not something i like doing, or do often, but my conscience is easy with it providing i believe it was justified. however, i've seen things advocated that even with the most provocation in the world i would not dream of doing.

so think about the most forceful thing the trainer is asking you to do, and decide for yourself if it is something you are 1) comfortable with doing all the time as a regular thing, 2) comfortable with in extremis or 3) no way no how.

we all differ in where our limits are on this kind of thing, there is no black and white answer. it may be that 'acceptable force' for captain - a level of force he is not particularly bothered by, is more than you are prepared to do. that's something you'd have to work round, if it turns out like that. i have known horses who would be upset by what i consider in an abstract way to be not very much force at all - of course i adjust handling accordingly. it alsao works the other way - i've known horses who were not even remotely inclined to listen to the maximum amount of force i was happy applying.

i know one person whose 'maximum force' was very very small indeed - her big strong bolshy cob walked all over her (literally and metaphorically!), and so she sold him to someone who handled him in a way he respected, and got a lovely gentlemanly TB who never made her so much as raise an eyebrow.
 
NoviceNic, don't get stuck on this "tap" thing. I have very light horses and they know that I'll "smack em" if I want. Since they know I will, I don't have to. Captains been "getting away" with things for a while, he may need some firm direction at first. Remember, it's up to him what happens. Start with a light "ask" and then increase the pressure until you get the desired response. If he doesn't want to be "tapped", all he has to do is move at the first "ask". The timing of the "release" is much more critical than the amount of pressure applied.

The "step" your asking for, "yielding the shoulders" is not easy to accomplish. It's not a step that a horse gives "willingly" and it takes a confident/experienced handler to "get" with many horses. I have people start with "disengaging the hindquarters" rather than the shoulders. The hindquarters usually happen pretty easily, the forequarters much harder.

People seem to think that many of the popular clinician/trainers are being cruel to their horses with the stick. I don't find that true, nobody's beating horses with carrot sticks that I know of, many people are using sticks/whips to gain the distance that gives them "confidence/safety" while they learn how to control horses movement. I'll whack a horse if they need it. In my mind it's much better than "nagging" them to move. I feel that one of the most common abuses of horses I see isn't from applying pressure, it's from not releasing it correctly.

"Recognize and reward the slightest try"


Have fun, be safe

Jack

http://www.horsesplay.us/phpBB2/index.php
 
I have very light horses and they know that I'll "smack em" if I want.

That will get you a light and responsive horse, but it's a fine line between training and bullying into submission. There's a difference between making something an easy option for the horse and the horse doing something because it knows it has no choice in the matter.

I'll whack a horse if they need it.

Whilst something like a pressure halter is often necessary to get the message through initially I don't personally think hitting a horse is necessary or acceptable, especially on the head. Each to their own.
 
how do you see a sharp tug in a pressure halter - especially the ones with knots or studs on the pressure points - is different from a slap, in terms of a way of saying 'that was not acceptable'? in my head, it's the same - and the same as rope over the nose, or a bridle on to lead in, etc.
 
I think Jack would slap a horse - even on the face if he felt he had to. Oddly though, I'd bet he's never had to.

I would. If I had to. And should have done too. Might have saved a scary trip to ER if I'd have thrown something towards her face before she threw her foot towards mine.

But that was then. You never see a good horseman let things get to that stage. More fool me for letting it get that far. Never again. Now she'll sidepass softly away if I even look at her funny. And I have never tapped her face or head.
 
not to me M, if i give a tug on the halter, it's through a medium.

a slap is direct contact, and that does make a difference imo.

i very very rarely need to slap or whatever you want to call it, and only do it to avoid getting hurt

my horses just don't need it as a rule, it's a definate aboration of how things usually go if i have to administer a slap.


i think of them as prey animals, they're not huge great heavy creatures to me in the first instance

i think that most horses are keen to please and willing to co operate. if you lose the conception that they're huge great beasties that bloomin hurt you, (hard because it's true) you handle them less defensively and they respond to that in bucket loads.
 
I wouldnt want to tap on the face either, and would have exactly the same issues over making him headshy, if I was going to tap for invasion of personal space I would probably go for the chest or the top of the leg myself, and it would just be a light tap, but then I have similar issues over pressure.
 
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