Carrot Stick Force??

[Yann]

Of course it works But if someone isn't comfortable with it there are plenty of alternatives that might suit them better, especially if the main objective is simply a polite horse

 

[cvb]

there are two things I don't *think* anyone has mentioned yet ? At least not directly, tho the first has been covered indirectly

1) "don't make me pick up the stick"....

which relates to escalation. The carrot stick only gets used in physical contact (at any pressure level) when previous cues have not been taken. So where it was commented that Levi/Jack probably rarely has to escalate, it is as a result of "don't make me pick up the stick" atttitudes. It is about a different *attitude*, not about different equipment. I could escalate with my voice (don't make me raise me voice) equally well...

2) intent

the reasoning behind friendly game vs porcupine and driving is that they all use contact (whether via person, rope, hand) but friendly has no intent, whereas driving and porcupine do have intent behind them.... and part of the learning is both handler and horse working out the difference !

If not, every time we walked towards any horse who has been taught to yield to pressure, they would get themselves out of our space. (Cos we teach them to do that !). But they don't because they know the difference in intent (IMHO).

Anyway, this is just to add to what has gone before rather than negate any of it !

 

[Crystal Fire]

Agreed Yann, and I've already mentioned a couple of alternatives earlier on. I wouldn't hit the horse on the face with a stick to get it to move, I'm just explaining why some do. You said "Bopping him harder and harder until he tries to find a way out and succeeds is only going to frighten and upset him, or worse make him fight back." and it just set me off on a train of thought... I thought, yes, they might do all of that, but then they eventually yield But it might not be pretty. (Your posts often set me off thinking about stuff!).
CVB agreed, your intent is what I meant by focus and intention. I can have one horse with me and send another away quite forcefully with a swinging rope, and the horse next to me doesn't move a muscle. That's because my focus and intent isn't on them. (I do this when bossy pony wants to run in and bite her so-called best friend ).
NoviceNic, are you planning to do the Parelli levels? Who is your trainer? Are they a PNH instructor?

 

[NoviceNic]

I asked what training method she uses and she uses a mixture. Basically what she explained it as was she is not going to stick to a certain method. She has a few under her belt and if one doesnt work then she will try another. This is called thinking out of the box. I too can think out of the box and because I feel uncomfortable tapping him on his face with a stick then I wont. I have practised with pressure/release and it worked well. Tonight I used it again and he followed me like a puppy. I have a lot to learn but that is a good thing. I love to learn and Captain tries hard. Together we are a good team.

 

[FRED]

Well, it would be interesting to know what's your trainers reasoning to hit a horses face/head let alone hit the horse at all. I'm lost why you should have been expected to do this.
I'm a great big softy too {although that doesn't mean I can't look after myself} no horse has ever walked all over me and Im happy not to throw things at my horse, "oi !!" works great and a accidental "nudge" on the shoulder works a miracle with pushy moments{I think folk use the word,horse moving into your space}.You need more energy for the"oi!! than the nudge,if you understand.


I don't think you are being soft at all , its amazing where softness can take you. I think in time you will be able to move your horse through body language and feel/timing, no rope, no schooling whip or stick,pressure halter/head collar, nothing physical.
I think Dorrance called it " we are both going some where interesting", it doesn't sound very posh or scientific does it, but it works great when you get the knack

 

[NoviceNic]

FRED - One very interesting thing I learnt the other day was where I look. If I look in front of him he will walk to that spot. If I look at his bottom he will move his bottom. Amazing feeling. This is the start of learning about our body language's effects.

 

[FRED]

Great stuff

if only all horses could experience interesting times with their owner/handler, the equestrian world would be heaps happier, I have learnt so much from all the horses I have ridden etc, there the best teachers out there and are so willing to please{usually }

 

[Yann]

I wouldn't hit the horse on the face with a stick to get it to move, I'm just explaining why some do.

I know Your posts get me thinking too

I can have one horse with me and send another away quite forcefully with a swinging rope, and the horse next to me doesn't move a muscle.

This is something I find happening when I'm leading mine in sometimes, particularly at this time of year. I'd not thought of it in those terms, but it's absolutely true

 

[NoviceNic]

I think in time you will be able to move your horse through body language and feel/timing, no rope, no schooling whip or stick,pressure halter/head collar, nothing physical.
I think Dorrance called it " we are both going some where interesting", it doesn't sound very posh or scientific does it, but it works great when you get the knack

This made me think. I tied Captain up this morning whilst I mucked out. Then I unclipped him and walked him toward his stable. WITHOUT HIS LEAD ROPE OR HOLDING HIM. To my amazement he followed me purely on the direction of my eyes. Not a bad game considering he has been stabled all night and usually he would be turned out.

I gave him a huge hug when I shut the stable door behind us.

 

[Bebe]

You can get lightness without hitting your horse. If you want the horse to step sideways and your cue is pressure on the side of the face, the horse is highly unlikely to get what's being asked for straight away. Bopping him harder and harder until he tries to find a way out and succeeds is only going to frighten and upset him, or worse make him fight back. It's not a tantrum.

This exact situation arose with a friend of mine, who does post on here occasionally. She was having some difficulties with her cob and got an expert out to help her from the ground. The expert proceeded to wave his finger at the horses head, don't think he ever touched him but this finger waving was apparently a cue for the horse to move backwards.

I've handled this horse and he understands backwards when asked with a hand on the chest.

When the expert was told this his response was that "he should know what the finger means".

Why exactly?

If someone waved a finger or stick in my face I wouldn't automatically take it as a sign of them wanting me to move in any direction. As a human I'd either step backwards (if I was the timid sort) by default, or step forwards and become the aggressor (if I was a more dominant person). You'll get the same responses from horses.

The cob in question got very upset and became increasingly more difficult to handle, to the point where after just 2 sessions with this "expert" he was kicking out and was quite aggressive, not one of his issues to start with.

I would never knowingly allow anyone to tap or hit my horse in the face regardless of their intentions.

 

[EnduranceAli]

Very interesting thread as I am working through Parelli Level One at the moment. The carrot stick is more of an extension to the human handler - ie you can extend the distance you work away from your horse. It is not a whip (although everyone assumes it is a lunging whip, including all horses that have been lunged ). Frayne had done little more than stand in a field for the past 6 years - and was obviously lunged when she was 'broken in' by a so-called professional trainer last year. She came back from that yard very nervous and difficult to handle. She would run through me with a normal headcollar on, could be very difficult to catch etc. After 4 weeks of PNH (Parelli Natural Horsemanship) she now comes to the gate as soon as my car arrives at the yard and is easy to handle with a simple rope halter (including riding) She will stand quietly whilst the carrot stick/string/rope is literally twirled above her/thrown over her - and, therefore, didn't react at all when a rug was put on her for the first time in her life and she is incredibly bombproof in all situations. However, if I look at her in a strong way (mother-in-law look ), change my body language and ask her to yield, then she will. The carrot stick is sometimes used to hit the ground when first working with the horse, it is used to direct the horse and encourage movement in whatever direction. Even after this short time I often leave it in the tackroom and do a training session with just me! I would encourage anyone to watch a Parelli DVD - it has changed totally how I work with horses and I wish I had done it 27 years ago.

Sorry - the Parelli-fan has now left the room

 

[Crystal Fire]

I would encourage anyone to watch a Parelli DVD

Nooo! I can't watch any more Parelli DVD's!
Been there, got the T shirt. In the past have done loads of Parelli, including some level 3 groundwork.
Seriously, I was quite upset watching Linda P at work on the new Level 1 DVD's, I thought she was very harsh on a couple of occasions. But that's another thread...
The MIL Look generally works because your horse knows that you are prepared to follow it up with something else. Most people are lucky if their horse takes notice of the MIL Look from day 1, with no other explanation.

When you say the carrot stick is used for direction, to encourage movement and to hit the ground sometimes, are you saying that you wouldn't touch or hit the horse with it?
Parelli fan - come back into the room - it's cold outside

 

[india]

When you say the carrot stick is used for direction, to encourage movement and to hit the ground sometimes, are you saying that you wouldn't touch or hit the horse with it?

Can I be naughty and reply to this one please?
Yes, the CS does come into contact with the horse.

When I was studying L1, To drive my horse around, I was taught to use a small circling motion with the carrot stick directed towards the side his face. The stick did come into contact with his face on the first occassion but it didn't make a forceful contact or frighten him in any way and it didn't have to be repeated. He wasn't traumatised by the experience, it was just a learning kerb for him. I'm now on L3 and able to ride him using only two carrot sticks for direction.

 

[Crystal Fire]

Yep, I know it does
But I wasn't sure if EnduranceAli has got to the stage yet where that starts to happen. In most cases you find it happening as soon as you start your Driving Game for Level 1. I understand how this works in Parelli, in an earlier post I said

(Why does Parelli carrot stick riding work so well? Because they have made sure their horses move their heads away when the stick comes into their eye-line.)

If the horse thinks it's going to get tapped/hit/phase 4 or whatever we want to call it on the face, then it will be likely to move it's head away before that happens.

 

[friesian girl]

carrot stick usage

Hello,
New to this forum. I am a level 1 parelli student and had gone to a trainer myself with help with using the stick correctly. Honestly, I have had to smake mine on the nose w/ the stick, but never again. The point I guess is to use the 4 phases and only go extrem when you need to. Also, Horses way 10 times what we do so when a horse kicks/bits another, its much differant than when we do it. It must feel more like a swat than anything else. My horse was having trouble w/ backing and I shook the rope, then tapped the air, then tapped the rope w/ the stick and finally, tapped his nose. He never question backing when I asked him again, and he is not head shy from it at all. I use the "friendly game" with the stick before and after asking him to do something. I especially rub his face with the stick so he knows its not a threat. Hope this helps!