Cruelty?

D

DeirdreBarlow

New Member
May 8, 2006
1,227
0
0
This is less of a "is it cruel" thread - and more of a "what would you have said" query.

I had a rare morning off today :p , didn't ride unfortunately as my hair was in dire need of a trim and colour (and I have a wedding on Saturday :) ). So off I trotted to the hairdressers, had a "are you holidaying this year" chat with said hairdresser, and then ignored the magazines in favour of chatting to the lady next to me whilst my dye developed.
We had a lovely natter, but hit a sticky point when I told her I had horses.
She was very polite about it all, but made it quite clear that she felt horse riding was cruel.

Now I've only ever met afew people with this opinion, and the lady today wasn't pushy with it (her daughter had horses too so I suspect she was fairly resigned to the idea).
But I have previously met afew "I'm a vegetarian, horse riding is slavery" folks who not only could you not possibly debate sensibly with, but you couldn't get a word in edgeways either.

My experience of dealing with this sort is to change the subject ASAP ;) .
But I always think it is a very hard subject to debate.

I don't think anyone would dispute that horses can't be MADE to do things they really don't want to do.
But they can be convinced that this is the way things are - they are ridden for our enjoyment, if they like it - great, if not - tough.
And that if they misbehave, we're justified in using a "force" - ie, shouting, a smack etc.

Please don't misunderstand me here - if I felt riding was cruel I wouldn't do it. But I do find myself struggling to work out my exact thoughts on the matter. I realise that's a contradiction :p - but I hope I've been clear enough.

Thoughts?
 
Hmm... tricky!

Technically speaking, it could be argued that keeping just about any animal outwith it's natural habitat is cruel; dogs for instance are pack animals that have evolved over many thousands(?) of years to roam and hunt, not sit in a house or tiny back garden for 23 hours a day and get walked 'round the block a couple of times if they are lucky.

Yet there are many instances where were it not for captive breeding programs, certain species would have become extinct years ago.

OK, think I have strayed from the point a little there, but I guess what I was going for is would she have agreed with keeping ANY animal as pets or in zoos, farms, etc?

I personally don't think it's cruel; many horses seem to jump for fun, and I believe some light exercise keeps them more mobile as the get older. In fact, if you were to compare the lifespan of wild horses with those that we keep as riding horses, I would guess that our horses live much longer (albeit due to a large number of factors!), so it kind of makes her argument a little weaker...
 
There is a question here about both humans and animals.
A ridden horse is a working animal.
Is it legitimate to ask an animal to work. As a guide dog? To give rides to disabled kids? To give rides to healthy adults?

Two trainers I greatly respect, Mark Rashid and Michael peace emphasise that their horses are working animals. Not pets. That a person or horse must be prepared to earn their food by working. Maxwell alows that we may regard our horses both as pets and as workers?

But the message I get is that it is better psycholoigcally for the horse to be a working animal. And that domestic horses would not be kept if they did not have a working role. People like us riding horses is essential to their genetic survival.
 
I don't think any animal, especially one the size of a horse, can be made to do something it doesn't want to! And we have become aware of the signs our animals give out when they are happy or not happy..
Would our horses gallop around a cross country course with ears pricked and tail up if they didn't want to do it?
I think the reasons why horses allow themselves to do what we train them to do is because they want out company (and food) and are willing to please us (generally speaking of course!!)
Same as the reasons why dogs can be made to do tricks, or work sheep.

or at least that is what i think.... (and i am a vegetarian!! )
 
Have pondered the same especially now I ride less and watch more.

My current (feeble?) justification is that they get a much better quality of life than they would in the wild here at the mo.

Eg guaranteed shelter, water, feed & grazing, protection from risk eg predators, active health care programme (worming, dental, farriery, parasitic manangement) etc etc.

I know I'll now be flamed because that's MY view of "better" quality of life, not theirs'. But I'll stand by it as a higher species, lol - after all, there's not a vet dog out there about to treat me, is there? They do owe us something me thinks.

'spose you also have to view our recreational use of them now, as the tail end of using them for battle then industry.
 
I think that a horse can be considered as a Big pet... I mean if you own a dog.. it has to be trained... to obey... that includes the odd yell, swat or punishment for doing something wrong...

It's part of being a responsible owner... a dog has to be shown that biting is a no-no, that peeing in the house is not allowed, etc...

So for a horse it's the same... responsible training... just because we sit on their backs, doesn't mean they're being mistreated... I know as a fact... that they are very big animals... & if they don't want to do something... you Can Not Force them to do it!!! So, obviously being ridden is not a terrible deed, other wise they wouldn't do it... ;) Most the times... I see the horses enjoy the ride as much as the owner...
It's *** for tat... We take care of their well-being, and in return they let us share a ride with them. :D :D
A dog gets their well-being taken care off... and in return... they get a good home... and the privilages to sleep in our beds!!! hehehe

As for proffesional riding... they do a job, just like proffesional huskies are trained to pull a sleigh... They same point of view, the only thing is one animal is bigger than the other...

But I really would change the subject ASAP with people like that lady... It's not worth fighting about it... I love horses... and she probably would too... if she took the time to actually know one!!! :D :D
 
You only have to look at a good partnership to know that the horse *wants* to perform for it's rider, and I don't think that's cruel. Although I figure that would be hard to explain to somebody who's never experienced that bond.

Horses are pretty well domesticated now. Yes the flight instinct is still there, and I imagine it's so ingrained that it always will be, but they cope with being stabled, broken, brushed, driven etc. Compare this to say a zebra? One is willing to be there, one clearly isn't.

Overall though, I don't see it as cruel, although I think there are instances when it is. Horses have been doing a job for a long time - we wouldn't continue to breed them if they weren't willing to do it and good at it.
 
Having seen my horse last night bucking, rearing and carrying on with my RI, it was quickly made very very clear that something was amiss. He was not happy and he DID NOT want her on his back. So much so, that he tried every trick he knew to get rid of her.
It was an incredibly extreme reaction (and one that has warrented an urgent vets visit as he never behaves like that) that made a very definate point. Horses (in general terms - I know there are those broken down unfortunates in the world :() will not tolerate something they don't want to. They make it very obvious that they don't want this daft person perched on their back, for whatever reason. If my horse hated me sitting on his back, he wouldn't put up with it. I'd be in the dirt quicker than you could say "no thanks, chumley!"

My friend's horse is a lovely jumper and it often brings a tear to my eye to see him all excited at the prospect of jumping. His ears prick forwards, his eyes visably light up and he becomes very excited. If he hated it, would he appear so keen on these sessions and perform so beautifully?

I'm a vegetarian, and all for animal rights. I don't think they have enough of them. I have a menagerie of animals (including a wild disabled owl who came to us as a chick - left to her own defenses she would be dead by now, rather than approaching her second birthday, happy, healthy and well adjusted) who I love individually. I don't think that it is cruel to keep them - I do my best to provide more than suitable housing, feeding, attention and companionship. Many of these animals (such as my French Lop bunnies and my Thoroughbred) wouldn't even exist if it weren't for people deliberately creating the breed as pets and racehorses respectively.
 
Hmm, interesting. A long long time ago somebody I knew was of the opinion that horse riding and riding schools were cruel. This particular person was grossly misinformed but they did rather influence me and led me to form opinions as a teenager that yes, it was cruel - however, as I grew up I realised they were indeed quite wrong - and that not all riding schools were terrible establishments where horses were overworked and neglected, but fun friendly places where the school horses were treasured and well looked after. Sometimes people are very misinformed. This particular person did not understand the concept of how bits worked etc. We all have opinions I know, but I just wish people knew a little more before making decisions.
I certainly don't think its cruel to keep a horse as both a pet and a working animal - our pair are both to us - they keep us fit and do their jobs - but, they are treated with kindness and fondness and are our pets too.
 
I think it's safe to say that on New Rider we'll all have come to terms with the domestication of horses by now, so hopefully the conversation won't spiral out of control -- but with a stranger at the hairdresser's I'd tend to politely say "that's interesting" and move on. The only "opinion" topics I'd risk an argument with a stranger for are really abhorrent views on racism, violence etc, which I feel a duty to challenge whenever they come up in public.

Having said that, though I've clearly come to terms with the domestication of animals (much to Fluke's disgust ;) ) I do think it's a complicated topic and it can still make me uneasy. The unease comes more from the domination of the natural world by humans than any thought that the animals are "worse off" by being domesticated. It does make me uncomfortable to look at the way we change the natural world to suit our own ends -- but hey, I guess we can't help it either, being animals ourselves, evolved to dominate... ;)
 
neen said:
I think it's safe to say that on New Rider we'll all have come to terms with the domestication of horses by now, so hopefully the conversation won't spiral out of control -- but with a stranger at the hairdresser's I'd tend to politely say "that's interesting" and move on. The only "opinion" topics I'd risk an argument with a stranger for are really abhorrent views on racism, violence etc, which I feel a duty to challenge whenever they come up in public.
QUOTE]

exactly.... People who hold extreme views (and I'd classify "riding is cruel" as a pretty extreme view) are often impossible to argue with..... Much as I respect vegetarians, I find vegetarian fundamentalists particularly tiresome.
Click to expand...
 
The unease comes more from the domination of the natural world by humans than any thought that the animals are "worse off" by being domesticated. It does make me uncomfortable to look at the way we change the natural world to suit our own ends -- but hey, I guess we can't help it either, being animals ourselves, evolved to dominate...
Click to expand...
coo you're clever - putting my thoughts into words. Couldn't articulate that myself.
 
Oh well, everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Just ask her if she drinks milk or eats dairy products (lots of veggies do) Dairy cows are the most enslaved and exploited animals about!

Exactly how are horses different to any other domestic animal in the slavery stakes?
 
Horses were never meant to really be ridden, so I guess in a sense, making them beast of burden could be considered cruelty.

That being said, they are so domesticated now, that many would seriously not be able to survive at all without human intervention, so riding would just be a natural progression to that.
 
I don't think anyone would dispute that horses can't be MADE to do things they really don't want to do.
But they can be convinced that this is the way things are - they are ridden for our enjoyment, if they like it - great, if not - tough.
And that if they misbehave, we're justified in using a "force" - ie, shouting, a smack etc.
Click to expand...

There's a big difference to me between giving a smack when a horse plays up, and having to constantly fight your horse in order to ride it. There's not many horses that don't like to work once they've been introduced to it properly, but if I ever encountered one, well, I wouldn't expect him to work. But horses have been bred by people to do work.

Example: Watch a sheepdog, one that's never been trained to herd, with a group of animals. They herd them. It's been bred into them to herd, even though the dog may not have had any formal training in herding.

There's a lot of horses out there, that if they suddenly lost their job, they'd be miserable. Of course, if they hadn't been ridden to begin with, they wouldn't know what they were missing, but is ignorance truly bliss?

And then there's the question that people that expect their horses to preform to a high level have to treat them extremely well. I'm not saying real abuse doesn't happen at high levels, but a horse isn't going to go through the trouble of a canter pirouette for someone that he doesn't like.

(Damnit, Deirdre, now you've got me all philosophical!)
 
I suppose I would be curious and would ask if she just thought horse riding is cruel or keeping animals in general but beyond that would not want to get into a too much of a discussion of it as I don't think either person is likely to change their mind and it could end up getting heated.
 
Say... I remember we had a very similar thread last year about this. Nonetheless, it is a very cerebral discussion.

My view is: if riding horses in a cruel manner (as we've often discussed here on NR) with gagets to force the horse, and if we abused our authority & never listened to the horse... if this was the norm all over the world: yes of course, horse riding should then be banned!

BUT we are smarter than that, most of the people who deal with horses, over the years have realized that the horse can feel both emotionaly & physically and that it is in our advantage to treat them with respect in order to get what we want: ride them.

In a way I really think that horses are much better off today than in the past, and with awareness & proper education (meaning doing things to enhance their life) the future should only get better. Most of todays riders are more sympathetic & do want the best for their horses.

I'm thinking that this well meaning lady at the parlor needs a bit more input. But yes everyone is entitled to their opinion but also everyone should also have an open mind & be willing to learn more.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
newrider.com
Top Bottom
Back