Do horses remember or is this my fault?

LexxLizz

LexxLizz

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Dec 11, 2011
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It was only yesterday I was banging on about how safe, predictable, and how much of a plod my loan-horse can be.
However, I have just got back from a hack-out today and have had a nighmare with her and was just wanting opinions.

First of all I went down to her paddock to bring her in, she whinnied at me as usual and galloped over. Whilst I was down the field the owner's daughter of the farm walked back up to the stables with me as she was down there poo picking.
I tacked her up as normal.
However, had the owners sons and daughters coming in and out touching her and offering help (she used to be owned by them and was passed on to my friend who now has her and loans to me). One of the daughters helped me on her whilst the mouting-block was being used and off I went.

WELL! Going down the farm lane was a task in itself, she was all over the place, as if she was beside herself, wouldn't respond to leg aids. We carried on down the road. She spooked at a carrier bag, spooked at a car! (The driver turned his engine off as I went past and commented 'well sat' so it must've looked bad - farrrr worse that I felt about it, I kept my cool :smug:). All the way to the trail was a fight - she kept doing 360's to head back, ran up peoples driveways, ran me into bushes, panicked in groups of people going past. And when I got her to the trail she was just unhandleable!!! Being by myself I got her as far as my aching body would allow her to go then took her the long way around back :furious::furious::furious:
In frustration, I took her hay from her on return to show her that if that's all she wanted to go back for, she wasn't having it!

Phoned the woman up who I am loaning her from - she couldn't understand it, but it clicked for her when I mentioned the farmers daughters/sons being around.
Apparently, the little girly hates them as they had had her from a foal and to get her to behave they beat her s**tless. Owner states that these were full blown punching her in the face, kicking her, smacking her, leathering her with crops under her stomach!!!!!!! Owner says that this could have definately been why she was acting how she was.
All she wanted to do the whole way around was go back, or canter off with me.
The daughters/sons have very little to do with the farm mostly, and in the 2months I have been there this is the first time I have met them.

Is it true what Owner is saying? Could it be that she's only testing me now after two months of knowing me? Or was it just a bad day?

Had I known I wouldn't have let them within an inch of her :( :( :(



EDIT: please note I'm not making excuses for me/her and although I kept my cool, my confidence has been completely knocked as a result :(
 
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Hmmmm maybe but just to note this is totally totally out of character for her. She was so so naughty! :frown:
 
Hmmmm....really find all that a bit hard to swallow TBH. If you think about it, if you bought a horse of someone that you KNEW was being so badly abused and mistreated, would you really still keep it within a mile of them?

Has her feed or anything been changed - anyone given her a bucket full of carrots or something? Thats sometimes all it takes if sugar is their 'buzz' word.

I dont want to question your way of dealing with her - but have to say if you think that holding back her hay to 'punish' her would have even the least effect on how she rides and to think she might realise that is why you withheld is, frankly , ridiculous.

If you were loaning my horse and she gave you a rough ride, and when you came back you withheld her feed because you were angry and wanted to punish her - well, lets just say you wouldn't set foot in my yard again OR be riding my horses EVER.:frown:
 
I am just going on what the owner has told me. That is apparently what happened and was the first I had heard about any mistreatment. If it was MY horse I wouldnt have kept it at any such yard with an obvious 'past' for it. I cannot answer why she has not moved her.

As for the hay thing, I thought I was doing the correct thing as this horse Ia very much motivated by her tum, and was coached to do this by said owner, knowing that she would be returning to the farm at night to replace the hay and give her her bedtime feed. I didn't just do this off of my own back! The horse grazes in the day and so wasn't left in anyway harmed, or high and dry.
 
Then if this is how the cob's owner as instructed you to deal with the mare who am I to question it? I therefore direct the following comments and critcism at the owner rather than yourself.:unsure:

I agree if it has a regular pattern of being fed and hayed then of course it wont starve. What alarms me is more that you are being coached into a very, very strange attitude to communicating and dealing with a horse when it is being difficult, either ridden or on the ground.

If you are doing some sort of training with the horse and using treats to achieve this, then of course you would withhold the treat if the particular 'movement/desired response' hasn't been demonstrated by the horse. However, if I am out on my horse, and she royally pisses me off by her behaviour under saddle, I would not expect her in any way to realise that because she has been a total arse she wont get her hay when we get home!!!:eek:

If you are happy with the horse and with how the owner asks you to reprimand and deal with her then so be it. Everybody has their own way of doing things - just wouldn't be mine Im afraid.:devil:
 
How odd that she should be so unusually naughty.

I'm not sure whether the presence of her previous handlers might have affected her. As someone whose pony has many bad memories and continues to be affected by them (for example if he sees a cart, or if I ask him to walk over more than one coloured pole, he also becomes spooky and unmanageable) I think it might, but perhaps others will think differently. But did she show anything when they were there? Ziggy makes his fear and displeasure quite clear (he literally :poop: with fear when he sees a cart).

See how she goes next time you ride her, without the previous handlers being around.

I have to say I agree with Cortrasna about withholding the hay. Horses have relatively simple minds, and I don't think she'll be able to link the punishment with the crime, so to speak. But if that's her owner's method, I see you have to stick to it.
 
By no means a professional but I wouldn't put my money on the children affecting her behaviour. I would have thought if that was the case, she'd be happy to leave the yard to get away from them? I'd say she's probably testing you, the honeymoon period is over and now she's' seeing what she can get away with? Sounds like classic nappy behaviour.
On the hay thing, postive or negative reinforcement needs to be within 30 seconds of the desired/undesirable behaviour for the horse to appreciate the link. NOt providing hay really just satisfs the owner's chip on the shoulder at being disrespected by the horse. Totally pointless as a punishment like cortrasna says but totally appreciate you are at the mercy of the owner's desire. Well done on riding through it all though and remaining calm. I'd have been having kittens!

.
 
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Right, I will take all of your criticism on board and won't be witholdibg the hay in future. I still have a lot to learn about horses and had no idea they woulnt relate what had happened with no-hay. Admittedly I went with what the owner coached and what my head said to do at the time. Please please please don't think I did this just to be cruel or anything like that :(
Would anyone have done anything at all on return then?
I find it interesting what you say Jane and ziggy about your pony... she did put her ears back and shy away when she saw daughters and sons but I didn't think anything of it at the time.
Also, what you say about the honeymoon period could be true flipos mum... Hadn't thought of it like that. X
 
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Admittedly I went with what the owner coached and what my head said to do at the time. Please please please don't think I did this just to be cruel or anything like that

I didnt for one moment once you had explained LexxLizz -that is why I made a point of saying that my further criticism was directed at the owner not you.:wink:

No I wouldn't behave in any way different on my return to any other ride - just do whatever your normal routine is - quite often totally ignoring their bad behaviour is far more effective than reacting to it!:redcarded: Bit like a small child misbehaving - if it doesn't get a reaction then they don't bother with that particular little bit of devilment again!:biggrin:
 
What I wrote in my other post might sound as if I'm suggesting that horses are deliberately naughty, trying to see what they can get away with, but its probably more that they are always analysing herd dynamics and deciding who in the herd they are above/ below. Maybe this is part of her testing out if you're higher up in the herd than her after the inital honeymoon period. Its happened to alot of us.
I don't think you came across as cruel, just unaware of how little impact the removal of hay would have. I think as long as you got round in one piece, you didn't turn and head back the way she wanted to go, thats all little successes and should be seen as such. Maybe she just needs to build up some trust in you to be her leader when out and about. She could be testing to see if you're a trustworthy leader. In her head if you're not taking care of her, she'll start taking care of herself.
 
Flipo's Mum said:
What I wrote in my other post might sound as if I'm suggesting that horses are deliberately naughty, trying to see what they can get away with, but its probably more that they are always analysing herd dynamics and deciding who in the herd they are above/ below. Maybe this is part of her testing out if you're higher up in the herd than her after the inital honeymoon period. Its happened to alot of us.
I don't think you came across as cruel, just unaware of how little impact the removal of hay would have. I think as long as you got round in one piece, you didn't turn and head back the way she wanted to go, thats all little successes and should be seen as such. Maybe she just needs to build up some trust in you to be her leader when out and about. She could be testing to see if you're a trustworthy leader. In her head if you're not taking care of her, she'll start taking care of herself.
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Perfect answer - agree with this one hundred per cent. Can't you tell Im a long time member of the nervous nellie's club too?:giggle:
 
Humm I am not going to comment on the hay as it has been said already.

Well done for staying on and not turning round and going home, One nil to you.

Horses do test their owners/riders just when you have totally fallen in love with the dope on the rope their true colours come out!:giggle:

You have to be brave and 'battle on through' by that I dont mean beat them I mean just take each ride as it comes, enjoy the easy ones and learn to sit deep for the hard ones. If it helps my lad has been a nightmare on the last couple of hacks, bronking and bucking whilst in walk!:redcarded: No reason but he is fresh and fit.

Has she been resently clipped? clipped horses can became quite fresh.
 
Thankyou for all of the responses :) I will take them all on board when o next ride with her (because of uni - not til Friday now :( :()
Flipos mum I understood your post completely and well explained - all horsey behaviours I need to learn.
And ownedbychanter, she hasn't been clipped! Infact she's a hairy mobster! I keep begging her owner to have her clipped actually and have offered to pay someone to do it myself!

I'm glad the hay thing is cleared up, as I say, I have a lot to learn since swapping riding from being a weekend hobby to being serious about it all!
Sorry if I came across wrong.
 
I wouldn't have thought that her behaviour would be related to her old owners. If it was, I would have expected her to go crazy at the mere sight of them - especially if one of them touched her.

Something was obviously up with her today. Maybe she was feeling ill, maybe she had been fed something different, maybe she had tweaked a muscle in the field and was feeling sore? My first port of call when looking at out of character behaviour is to elimiate pain. If my horse (who is equally calm and well behaved) had acted in such a way, I would have got back to the yard and examined him to try and see if I could find anything wrong. I would have run my hand all over his body to try and find a reaction, looked very closely at his feet and probably get a second opinion. I would then keep a very close eye on if he is eating/drinking and how he reacts in the field. I would also have examined if I had been doing anything differently riding wise to have caused it.

I don't generally think that horses will suddenly change behaviour in such a drastic fashion to test you. While I agree that horses will react to their owners, I don't think that you will generally have an angel one day and a monster the next.

Echo the hay comments though. With-holdig food as punishment is not the way to go.
 
Thanks Mary Poppins, this is something her owner told me she did when she went up to give her her bedtime feed. She called me to say she checked her over briefly and put her on the lunge to observe her walk/trot etc and could see nothing wrong with how she was doing.

Perhaps as Flipos Mum and Ownedbychanter says she was simply testing me, and I have to take the good days with the bad days.

Again, I understand the logic behind the hay. And as I keep re-iterating - I was acting on impulse and what Stella's owner had said to do. Had I known it had made no difference or that it may have appeared cruel - I wouldn't have done it.
 
You posted exactly what happened, including the witholding hay, I for one don't think you were cruel, misguided perhaps.

You have had some good advice, which you have taken on board. You are relatively new to day to day horse care, you are going to make mistakes, we all do, don't beat yourself up about it. Learn from it and move on.

Hope you have a better ride next time. :biggrin:
 
I saw your point with the hay. As I see it, you took the hay away not to punish the horse but because you suspected that she may have napped and hurried home to get it. That would not really be a punishment, in my eyes, but would only work if you completely changed her routine permanently by not allowing her to expect a feed when she returned.

I think it's perfectly possible that your mare was upset before you left the yard, although you don't intimate in your post that she seemed stressed during the tacking and mounting process.
 
i think put the ride down to a bad day (irrelevant of what caused the behaviour) and roll on Friday! Please update us of how it goes.

As an owner of a very lazy unmotivated nappy cob, the only thing i would be very keen not to do ever is give in and turn around on the spot to go home. You did the right thing going the longer route home. If she does it again on Friday, be consistent and ride like you did yesterday, better you get off and lead rather than giving in and turning on the spot....

does her owner ride her too? has she had this behaviour before?
 
I think it's quite likely that she was upset by the children, and scared by them, so she was trying to take control and gallop home to where she felt safe. You haven't really had her long enough for her to trust you to protect her. I know it's not logical, because home is where the scarey kids were, but I don't think horses reason in that way.

As for the hay, yes, it would be completely ineffective as a teaching tool, but I don't think the horse would experience it as cruelty either - she'd just think "oh, hay's not here yet .." or something along those lines.
 
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