EMS & Weight Control

Flipo's Mum

Flipo's Mum

Heavy owner of a Heavy
Aug 17, 2009
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Perthshire, Scotland
So tonight our vets put on a talk from Prof Derek Knottenbelt, previously from Leahurst in Liverpool and now based in Glasgow Vet School (I think).

The subject was something I'm interested in with regards to my beefcake of a horse. And any excuse to listen to someone talk about my favourite subject, I was a captive audience!

There was quite a bit about weight management. This vet was fantastic at public speaking, had us all giggling along at his very frank, straight forward comments and he had some passionate opinions about horses and ponies never needing rugs, no horses have ever died from being cold, but they could die from starvation and cold together. Really confirming what we all say on here about the internal furnace and keeping this burning. Horses have more trouble cooling themselves down.

He also didn't speak very highly of condition scoring and instead explained its good to focus on weight taping (not primarily because of the weight indication, but more to do with the size of girth and its change). He talked about weight fluctations being important in preventing EMS developing - Making sure that the horse is a ideal weight and from that he can afford to put on 5% towards the late end of Summer, holding it in Autumn, and then losing that 5% and another 5% ontop, so that going into spring he is at his leanest. This change in weight - a natural fluctuation which happens in the wild, is to help prevent develping EMS.

I know that there's the 1.5% of bodyweight in feed rule to help lose weight, but I didn't realise that for each hour the horse is out in a field, you should shave 0.2% off the 1.5% bodyweight of feed you provide as he/she is getting it naturally.

Anyhoo, I found it all very interesting, and at points I hung my head in shame with regards to weight issues, but at the same time I'm doing certain things right and felt positive and constructive about the situation.


Oh, and PS. Yes, another vet....so I HAD to ask about our dirty willy situation. I have another potential remedy to try.:wink:
 
Its interesting isn't it. I do struggle to hold my temper sometimes as far as weight management goes. I'm cruel for not rugging with a low trace clip and not feeding hay or hard feed but Joy is still the same weight as she was in summer. She's slimmer than many ponies still but the owners can't see the problems they are harbouring for future or even that in winter (and with them getting no grass so perfect opportunity to lose the weight) the ponies are still a 4-4.5 on the condition scale.
 
I find it a fascinating topic, I've always struggled with Puz's weight, she was grossly overweight when we got her and it took forever to get that under control. Now I try and get her as lean as possible going in to Spring so I stand a fighting chance of keeping her at a respectable weight during the warmer months.
 
When you hear straight-talk from a vet, it makes such sense. I went to an EMS/Cushings talk a couple of months ago and he said the same things you mentioned in your post, FM.

A lot of the women were talking about how to reduce intake for horses that are stabled overnight.... the nets with smaller holes that slow down eating were discussed, as was soaking hay etc but some of them still said that when they did the late evening check, their horse had already eaten it's rations and they didn't like the idea of them standing for the rest of the night with nothing to eat as their systems are designed for grazing. I asked whether there had any been any studies done to show whether horses would develop ulcers from being deprived of forage for the night and he said no (but that he'd suggest it to some of his students as a possible dissertation :giggle:) but I didn't think to then ask whether any studies had been done to show whether the STRESS of such a situation may have caused them to develop ulcers. I asked about this on HHO and a link got posted to show that there has indeed been at least one study which showed that some horses had developed ulcers but that they don't know whether they would have been predisposed anyway.

It's such a balancing act.
 
JC I am with you on the being a cruel owner then. I get a lot of comments about the boys as I like them both looking fit and health or 'lean' as people have put it.

You can see there ribs but they are both have full clips and have very shiney coats a good covering over their bums and neck but just because breeding they are both never going to have a lot of weight in their ribs.

I have to say that most of the negative comments I get tend to be from the pony owners (sorry runs off and hinds) They have lost 5% of body weight from summer to now which I am happy with as their summer paddock has lush grass and I will have to limit their intack.

Also with Chanters bad hocks I do not want him carrying any extra weight.

They will be turn out 24/7 from the start of March if the weather stays the same as it is now (above freezing at night).

I got a lot of dirty looks today when I turned them out with out a neck cover on!!
 
Im struggling to keep weight on Sul at the mo, he was on a token feed of speedibeet and graze on with ad lib hay plus out for 12hrs a day during winter. A couple of weeks ago he dropped weight drastically, his hip bones were sticking out and i could feel his ribs! :unsure: He was so lethargic that he has had to stop being ridden also as he kept losing his backend. Something that has never happened before. He is not clipped and in a no fill rainsheet, i have since upped his feed to include conditioned cubes and oil and seems to be gaining back some of the weight lost plus got some of his sparkle back. The vet is coming out to see him as his tummy seems quite tender and he is still very tucked up but he is not off his food.

Just not right for a heavyweight cob who should be out rugless and living on fresh air!
 
As you all know, Bens weight has been a big issue of mine over the last few months. I weight taped him last night and we are getting nearer and nearer to the 600kg mark, which will mean that he has lost 75kg since November.

My vet told me much the same as the vet in your talk, although my vet was more positive about condition scoring. He told me that it is easy to artificially make a horse measure bigger or smaller by simply feeding lots of forage or removing that forage for 24 hours. He said that horses can become bloated easily (just as humans can) and the weight tape must only be used as in indication to measure gains and losses over time, but condition scoring must be used as well.

Thankfully many people on my yard has come round to my 'cruel' ways of keeping Ben out naked with a blanket clip. I have been riding him loads over the last few weeks and he is really starting to look healthy. Someone who previously told me that he wasn't at all fat last November, told me last night that he is now looking really well so perhaps he was overweight after all! We were trying to feel a rib last night and it is possible that there is at least one lurking which is almost within feeling distance.

I hate to see so many horses rugged up to the eyeballs and unable to move. It's also interesting that some people seem very surprised that their horses have dropped weight recently, and they seem to be frantically feeding them extra to compensate. One thing that I have recently understood is that many horse owners are very blinkered in their approach to how they keep their horses. I ensure that I read and research everything as much as possible, but it seems that not everyone who owns a horse does this and consequently they don't actually know as much about keeping them as they think they do.
 
Friend and I were chatting afterwards and its making us realise that we don't need to feed as much hay as we do in winter. We bought one bale of straw in December to help them through the really bad snow, in between hay feeds. I've weighed the hay before and its only about 0.5% of his bodyweight - although we're supposed to feed based on their ideal bodyweight, not their actual bodyweight.

As for the straw. We didn't think they'd eat a second big bale before the spring so instead just ordered two bales of hay and are hoping we'll not need any more. More fool us. Next year we'll order a bale of straw at this time and mix it with the hay or have it adlib and cut the hay ration even more. I'm reading more and more about thrifty Belgian Draft horses being able too exist on next to nothing. I'm getting tougher honest!
 
Interesting thread FM. I am a bit surprised that the vet said don't rely in condition score and just weight tape instead though. I know that Belle has lost quite a bit of weight since I got her, because I can see that she has lost the fat pads front and behind of her shoulders, her cresty neck and most of her apple bottom, I can feel her ribs too now, yet on the weight tape she has only lost 54 kilos.
I constantly worry that I'm under feeding being cruel leaving her without a rug and rationing her hay at night - I too worry that she'll spend hours in her stable with nothing to eat at night, but I have to do it to make sure she gets down to a healthy weight for her going into spring. I don't want Lammi or EMS in an ideal world we could keep our horses as nature intended. :(
I know most of the horses/ponies on our yard are too fat and one has sadly been diagnosed with EMS so owner has no choice but to do something about the ponies weight and management, but I'm still seen as the big bad owner who is cruel.
I mean I still turn out naked come what may the weather throws our way, half of them don't even get turned out if it's raining much less snowing or too cold, poor buggers and they wonder why they all have coughs and crib bite/door kick and weave!
Sorry went off on one a bit there didn't I.
 
Mary Poppins said:
I hate to see so many horses rugged up to the eyeballs and unable to move. It's also interesting that some people seem very surprised that their horses have dropped weight recently, and they seem to be frantically feeding them extra to compensate. One thing that I have recently understood is that many horse owners are very blinkered in their approach to how they keep their horses. I ensure that I read and research everything as much as possible, but it seems that not everyone who owns a horse does this and consequently they don't actually know as much about keeping them as they think they do.
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I would like to think this wasn't in reference to my post? As i am not frantically feeding to put weight on but simply highlighting an issue which is giving me cause for concern, even the harshest winter we experienced in 2010 didn't cause the weight loss i have seen so far and it's felt by professionals there is an underlying stomach issue. I am far from blinkered on how best to keep my horses especially when it comes to managing weight considering i have a pony who needs to have his weight managed due to being prone to laminitis.
 
Innocence said:
I would like to think this wasn't in reference to my post
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If I had intended to post a personal reply to your post, I would have quoted you directly.

I was speaking generally about my experiences - not about anyone in particular. I get very sick and tired of people trying to tell me how to look after my horse, and so I never criticise anyone else in their choice of management. Generally I do think that people feed their horses too much and many don't understand that horses are designed to lose weight at this time of year. That was the one and only point I was making.
 
I'm fortunate in that the setup at our yard and my horses mean I don't struggle to keep weight off and the seasonal fluctuations happen as a matter of course. On another yard I might be seen as mad and cruel, but muzzling perfectly normal horses and bringing in for part of the day to reduce grass intake aren't seen as anything terrible or unusual at our place.

Two things get my goat a little on this subject :D One is that some horses definitely will turn into toast racks in winter and do need rugging, especially if you've clipped them as well and aren't able to put forage out in the field. The other thing which always seems to be overlooked is work - there's no need to agonise so much about how much hay they're getting if you're riding the legs off them, and getting them fit will speed up their metabolism and burn weight off in a healthy way.
 
Jack was looking a bit poor at the beginning of Feb but seems to have perked up again now. He's just started shedding his winter coat (hoorah! At last!) and that is coming out in handfuls so he's very itchy. My experience is that the metabolic effort to get rid of all that tends to have an effect on their weight and general condition for a few weeks.... then with the spring grass they perk up again.

Meanwhile, Joey has not parted with a single hair yet..... :giggle:
 
Silver is just right, and I think rascal is too (though hard to tell - his coat makes him look like he has a massive tum!) - can feel pelvis and shoulders well, nice upside down I shaped bums but no ribs - that will come off in next few weeks I am sure. They were both a little over going into winter and have dropped nicely. I have actually had to increase hay a fair bit as they dropped too much too quickly.

Madam is rugged as she is bald :rolleyes: pig is naked of course!

I don't think people realise just how "cruel" you have to be to get weight off.- you really do have to limit everything for a good doer - from treats to hay to bucket feeds to increasing exercise. It's tough but once your there it is much easier to maintain at a correct weight.
 
Yann said:
The other thing which always seems to be overlooked is work - there's no need to agonise so much about how much hay they're getting if you're riding the legs off them, and getting them fit will speed up their metabolism and burn weight off in a healthy way.
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This is something I am also doing... I can only manage 5 days a week though as full time job, very ill mum who lives 40 miles away and a little time for my poor long suffering hubby mean I don't have time for more. But I still agonise about how much hay she's getting, she is the very best of good doers.
 
I don't know if opinions are different up here because of us being hardy Scots:tongue:, but I've not come across anyone who would call me cruel because of my management of Flipo - no rug, no shelter and next to no food.

The vet wasn't again rugging per se, just that he didn't agree with folk rugging horses up to keep them warm. Rain is a different matter. But then I think he wanted to argue that this is what a shelter should offer. Heh ho. Its just opinion.
He did say alot about work, but in comparison to what he sees with horses in Africa, working 16 hour days made wholly of muscle, I don't think anything we ever make them do will compare. I find it amusing that some folk feel bad for stealing their horse away for an hour's riding. Its all good, they get another 23 hours to eat!!

He justified his opinion on condition scoring, and I tended to agree based on the build of my horse. He talked alot about fat and muscle and body composition being different for everyone so its difficult to tell with condition scoring, but there was more to it that I missed because a certain friend said something to me at the critical moment!!

MP, I think you're right. There are alot of folk who don't move with the times where it comes to horses. I learn alot on this forum, and have changed my opinions about horse ownership since buying Flipo because of on here. But folk that don't use forums like this are sheltered from different ideas on how to keep their horses and I think they miss out. But thats not to say how they do things is wrong, its just that they haven't considered alternatives and get a bit stuck in their ways.....but don't we all. I guess we only go looking for help and support when we come across that particular problem. Such is life.

I will work to be tougher on my boy. Like PFB says, we need to be much crueller than we think as they can live on next to nothing. Its something I'm realising over time and it helps me feel more at ease with being this tough.

Oh and PS, he said don't even get him started on concentrates......there's no need!
 
It's certainly not easy to manage good doers. Ziggy lives out without a rug 24/7. He has a shelter, and interestingly when we have had loads of snow he hasn't gone near it, but the cold cold driving rain we had earlier this year sent him in to it. He's always toasty under his fur though.

He does get hay, as there's hardly anything to eat in the field now. The three boys get about 5 slices a day between them. And he gets his handful of chaff and herbs in the evening. Not a lot: but he has hardly lost any weight over the winter. His belly is less evident, and I am pretty sure I can feel a rib now, but "well covered" would be accurate!

Mattie on the other hand needs a big Calm & Condition feed in the winter to keep him looking shiny and handsome. Bucket feed is about the only way I can differentiate between their nutritional needs because they share their field. I suppose I could shut Ziggy in the shelter while Mattie eats hay, but that would feel really cruel! :cry::unsure:
 
Well, I am pleased that Tobes is not overweight, and naturally monitors his intake of food.

I give him adlib hay at night, and he eats what he wants and leaves what he doesn't.

Must be an absolute nightmare trying to keep weight off a horse, and something I think I would be dreadful at!!

And as for rugging, not rugging, again, very much dependent on the horse you have, the type and all the rest.

I am quite surprised however about the ulcer comments. I remember going to a vets talk about ulcers. It was commented that the fact that so many racehorses get them is due to a lack of fibre, a lot of protein and the stress of an un-natural lifestyle. It was quite a few years ago though, and I guess like everything ulcers were a fashionable topic then, as weight is now.
 
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