Encouraging the horse to move off your leg

S

SarahC

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Jul 13, 2004
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Hi all,

Ok so sorry this is long but, I'm having a problem with Spangle's laziness. At first I thought it may be a fittness/stamina issue, but she has been ridden 4-5 times a week consistently over the last year and has had alot of fittness work put in, so I'm doubtful its that.
I did start feeding her on Response Energy cubes but they have made very little difference.
Anyway, she basically ignores the leg and isn't forward going at all. She will give the least she can get away with, and if you up the ante and ask for more, she will produce it, but I end up working much harder than she is! Our schooling consists of plenty of transitions (walk halt, halt-trot etc), half halts, circles, serpentines etc. We have even had sessions on what I call gymkhana games where we have an imaginary starting box, a count down and its straight into canter/gallop from halt! (This is hard work...for me!!). My old instructor used this technique to try to get her listening and really moving forwards. Again is really hard to get, but things do improve once she delivers! We play around doing typical gymkhana games too. (So its not just schooling all the time).
I don't nag with my leg, instead she gets leg on and if she consistently pays no attention, she will get one big kick and then the leg stays quiet. Same with the whip, I use a schooling whip to back up my leg aid and it works for a few minutes and then its back to normal!
So, what should/can I be doing to get more impulsion/attention/forward movement/reaction to aids etc etc???
She's pretty much the same hacking and jumping too!

S
 
...I'd be wary of the starting box game- either she'll expect to be able to take off right away whenever you give her much leg (if she likes it), or she might become tense and anxious (if she doesn't like it).

I was taught a very good concept when learning to ride stubborn and/or lazy horses- first you ask, then you tell, and if that doesn't work, you demand. Don't keep "asking" (quietly nudging over and over again- this gets no reaction, especially once she learns to ignore you), and don't "demand" right away (if you give a huge kick the first time you ask for something, she'll not enjoy riding, and it will be more work for you).

So what I'd recommend is that you ask once (quiet nudge, click/cluck/kiss/whatever your verbal go-forward cue is), and if she doesn't respond, give her a small kick or a very strong nudge and increase the sound (disregard, if your horse isn't trained for verbal cues), and if that doesn't work... don't let her get away with it.

Once you can get her going, (this is the hard part)- DON'T LET HER STOP! You know your horse, so you know how much leg is necessary to get how much reaction. The moment you sense her about to slow down, give her leg- maintain a constant pace. Don't give her so much leg that she goes faster than she was before she slowed- you want her to get the idea that you're the one regulating the speed, and you want it exactly *here*. This will take a lot of work on your part, but eventually, your horse will give up and do as you ask. This isn't an energy or endurance issue- it's laziness. And you certainly can't fight laziness with laziness (or even average)- the only way to fix this is to give just as much energy as she's giving you laziness.
 
SarahC said:
..........and if she consistently pays no attention, ............
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:) this statement is a very strong clue as to where the problem lies.....rider expectation. With a lazy horse the rider is often satisfied if they get some sort of response to a leg aid rather than setting their objective of instant and full response. There can not be grey areas when schooling or even handling horses.
So to cure the problem, and it is easily solved
1) make your mind up that you will only accept 100% response to your leg aid.
2) Ask gently.
3) if you dont get an instant response to (2) then use the amount of leg (backed up with schooling whip if necessary) to get a dramatic response. NOT just the response you asked for first time.
4) keep leg still but monitor every stride the horse takes.
5) The instant and I do mean INSTANT the horse backs off even slightly use sufficient leg to get another dramatic response then keep leg still again.
6) Transition back to walk.
7) monitor the walk stride and.........see step (5)
8) Transition back to trot using procedure from step 1.
Horse will always find the most comfortable way to work. For lazy horses you have to make Right very comfortable and WRONG uncomfortable.
Essential do's and don'ts
DO be 100% consistent in the way she is ridden whether schooling or hacking. The first time you let her get away without responding FULLY to a light request you will open up doubt in her mind and set yourself back to square one.
DON'T be in a rush to slow the horse if it goes too fast from a leg aid. You asked for a forward movement and you got one so praise the horse then gently bring her back to the required pace after a few strides.
DO praise the horse EVERY time you get a positive forward response.
DON'T compromise on what you want or lower your expectation.
DON'T make excuses for her...she's tired, well we did get some nice work etc

Your problem can be cured within 30 minutes if you are serious about it.
If you dont believe me, ask DITZ. One of her friends had a very similar problem and couldn't believe how responsive and light her horse became in a single lesson.

Remember...BLACK and WHITE. If its Right then praise to the hilt. If its wrong then it had dam well better be right the next time you apply a leg aid.
You are aiming for a light responsive relaxed horse from the leg. This will never happen by trying to go from black to white through all the shades of grey.

CONSISTENCY is EVERYTHING:D
Horse health warning. This type of process should NEVER be used with the hand. ONLY the leg. Rein response is a far more subtle affair
 
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o rite ive jus got through this problem! try this:
ask your horse to walk on, with a sqweeze if he doesnt a bit harder until he does it. if really stubborn give him whip.
Do transittion work so your horse is listening to you. but make sure you remember this:
always squeeze first - and give your horse 3 chances ( i did 2 because my pony was stubborn b4) 1. one a squeeze 2. one a harder squeeze or a kick 3. if nessary a quite a firm whip
you can do the 3 rules in any tranisition
keep us posted :p :)
o yea it mite sound cruel but waving the whip near its face does help! but i dnt do it any more as my horse is off the leg!!!
 
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agree with davidh but would like to add one thing.
we had a pony who is dead to the leg in the school, this is because he is bored and a bit ring sour. he wouldnt work either, so we gave him a year of galloping up hills, along the beach, long hacks. this got him interested in life again. i started schooling him out on hack, walk trot transitrions, lag yielding, shoulder in etc. i got what i asked for first time everytime. Ive even had him feel explosive out on a hack and this is not normal for this old man. i took him showingf again last year. got a second at a major county show and had no resistance in the ring. so try changeing your surroundings!
 
yep similar with pride except it appeared to be more like 14 years of topend showing doing 3-4 shows a week and not getting much time to relax on the show field. i give all mine the chance to graze and relax on a show field. when we first got pride he was a tempremental, bad mannered (on the floor), dead to the leg, abused little pony. now he is 24 full of life and quite happily works in the showring if i keep the number of classes down to 1 or 2 trusts me, not bad mannered any longer and less tempremental.
 
First off

  1. If the horse is fed an unbalanced , inadequate diet, this often lead to sluggish behaviour
  2. Any problem with his teeth or mouth, tack, back, or feet, shoes can certainly create an undering unwillingness not to work
  3. Ask yourself if the horse is sluggish all the time or when you do certain activities
  4. Maybe the horse was never taught to go forwards with energy or enthusisam

What can you do????????

You have to let the horse know that he is expected to move with a little more purpose in life, and you must make it light-hearted, fun and enjoyable for him

Adopt a cheerful "yipee, this is great, let's go attitude and use your vioce in this way. Get on and, from his first step, talk to him in a cheerful upbeat way

Give clear aids in a sideways tapping movement on his sides. Give him encourgement while doing this the instant you get an imrovement stop the aids and say good boy in an approving tone stroke his neck/withers. Sit there and keep praising him but stop all other aids.

The second he slows down , repeat the process, being sure to stop all the said once you get a result. Careless nagging will only make him worse.
 
Just make sure that when you give your leg aid and\or later your whip aid that you completely give the hand AND praise! Rather than the starting box game - why not go back to basics and treat this as if it were a young horse. That means stopping a schooling session as soon as you get a good result. The horse then has a much better understanding of the point of being 'good'. If the only result of being responsive is that the horse gets harder work - it's really no surprise that it makes the choice to not do it.
 
Phew...thanks to everyone who has posted a reply!!

I'll just answer a few questions/statements first....

If the horse is fed an unbalanced , inadequate diet, this often lead to sluggish behaviour
Any problem with his teeth or mouth, tack, back, or feet, shoes can certainly create an undering unwillingness not to work
Ask yourself if the horse is sluggish all the time or when you do certain activities
Maybe the horse was never taught to go forwards with energy or enthusisam
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Ok, diet I think its fine...I'm quite alert about diet and work very hard to get it right...plus I have the advice of an equine nutritionalist...but very good points tho!
Teeth, back, saddle etc all checked on a strict regular basis so I know there's no problems there.
Interesting point 3...patsy @ stubley found her to be exactly the same and had her methods of getting her to 'ping off the leg' as she puts it! She was fine for the first couple of months when I got her but then obviously my shocking riding has let patsy's work go on this issue!
make your mind up that you will only accept 100% response to your leg aid.
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Interesting point David, as I'm sure that what I think is 100% is actually a bit half-hearted (probably due to my confidence issues). I have a certain 'mind set' that I am finding it difficult to get out of. Outwardly, my confidence has improved and as a result, I am wanting more. However, inwardly, I think the confidence issue isn't quite resolved and therefore when I ask for 100% response I am probably only asking for 60%! Hope that makes sense...it sounds much more understandable when I say it to myself! :eek:

Rather than the starting box game - why not go back to basics and treat this as if it were a young horse. That means stopping a schooling session as soon as you get a good result
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She's just 6, so still a youngster. I always stop on a good note so to speak. Once I get the desired result, whether it be a good jump, leg yield etc. The schooling stops.

Anyway, thanks to everyone (and I mean everyone), that took the time to reply. I'm going to print this out so I can refer to it in more detail.

S

ps. Interestingly, today, she was like a mad woman! Spinning, taking off, head between her knees, the lot. BUT she was instantly responsive to the slightest leg aid...In fact my confidence took a bit of a battering all in all. The reason for this was that she was in on her own, the others had gone off hunting and we can't turn out at the moment (YO's orders), so there was no choice and I think she's was a little fed up about this!
 
My Stubley cob was fairly slow off the leg when I first got him and I let it slide for the first couple of months, just being able to hack out safely was enough.

Then I started making a consious effort to sort it out, carrying a schooling whip at all times, even when I go to catch him from the field as he tends to drag his heels.

Now he goes like a train with the smallest amount of leg, and if he ever gets a slap from the schooling whip he takes it as an afront where he hardly seemed to notice a few months ago.

I'm sure you can sort this out, although some horses are just naturally not as forward as others, but if you are consistent and always demand a "reaction" when you use your leg he will learn.
 
carrying a schooling whip at all times, even when I go to catch him from the field as he tends to drag his heels.
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Yep, I do that too!!

Today, tried out suggestions, particularly DavidH's....but I felt like I was constantly having to use really strong leg aids, backed up with schooling whip..and I mean constantly. She would move forwards, but only for about 5 strides and then she would drop back again. As soon as I felt the lapse, I asked again, strongly and with the whip and again, great for 5 strides but then back to lolloping again! The only difference I did notice was that by the end, I only had to position the whip behind my leg and not actually use it and she would react. But again only for 5 strides!!

Is this a positive though?? Will this effect start to last for longer the more I use this technique?

S
 
yes it will work fo longer as time goes on, provided you give clear signils and back it up each time. she will eventualy get the idea that it would be easier for her just to keep going
 
Yes, I agree, it will feel like a battle to begin with but she will come to realize what you are asking, and that it is easier to do it first time and save all the agro.

Another thing I sometimes do is use short bursts of trot to liven up the walk. If I have my cob out on a hack and he is trying to crawl along I do extra trotting with him and I think has twigged that it is just easier to walk out in the first place.
 
I noticed this reply to David H's great suggestions and had to join the forum just to reply to you:

Interesting point David, as I'm sure that what I think is 100% is actually a bit half-hearted (probably due to my confidence issues). I have a certain 'mind set' that I am finding it difficult to get out of. Outwardly, my confidence has improved and as a result, I am wanting more. However, inwardly, I think the confidence issue isn't quite resolved and therefore when I ask for 100% response I am probably only asking for 60%! Hope that makes sense...it sounds much more understandable when I say it to myself! :eek:


That makes so much sense to me!
I was having similar problems with my coloured hairy cob until I got my fantastic new instructor a year ago - you must be 100% certain that you want the 'Go' response you are asking for - you must ensure that when you ask for 'Go' that you go with the horse. I wasn't really at the start and he knew it and therefore the response was 'Go? Are you sure? Nope didn't think so!'
All of what David H said is exactly the way I worked with my cob and now we are flying and competing (and winning!) regularly at dressage competitions - ok we still do get the occasional 'could go more forward' but what of it?
My general confidence levels were at their lowest point 2yrs ago - not just riding -everything including my driving and even getting on public transport (all stemming from a car crash 5yrs ago) but working through things with the horse has helped everything else.
Your horse sounds like she's reading you very well and sounds like a very kind soul just like my guy - treasure her and dont worry about how long it takes to get yourself and herself sorted.
Good luck:)
 
Thanks irishcobsrule....sometimes, I do tend to run before I can walk....all stems from the fact that as I've ridden so long there's things that I know how to do in theory, but because my confidence has let me down so much, I can't put them into practice!!

Anyway, I'm going to work really hard on this and follow all of DavidH's advice and see where we go....obviously this will take some time and I need to learn to recognise the little steps forward!

S
 
Sarah - As you know Captain is king of laze. But I have a new RI and she has been schooling him for me. I have a go at what she is teaching me and then my frustration kicks in because I cant get him to do it. She jumps on and makes Captain do it. I have noticed a lot of difference since she has been riding him. I jump straight back on and he does what I ask...:eek: Which means that not only am I not confident in giving the signals but he plays on it and is stubborn/lazy. Why dont you get a more experienced rider to school her and see if this improves Spangle's laziness?
 
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