Feeding and nutrition - all in a knot - advice needed please

Nimbus65

Nimbus65

Active Member
Aug 15, 2005
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I've been taking a good look at Kal's nutrition intake b/c of the appalling state of his feet. Obviously his current feed/supp regime isn't working b/c his feet are rubbish.

Just to recap, he is currently fed:

- 1/4 scoop Alfa A (molasses free) 2x/day
- 1/4 scoop Blue Chip Original 2x/day (contains Biotin)
- 1 scoop HH Seaweed and Rosehip (supposed to support horn development) - 2x/day
- 1 skip haylage 2x/day

He is out at night (in overreach boots), during the day he is in on straw - bed well-maintained and kept clean (although he trashes it). He is an active/busy boy and is healthy in every other way (although he is very thin-skinned and marks very easily - and his rugs rub). He isn't a particularly good doer and isn't prone to lami (and isn't a native type). His grazing is on chalk and gravel and is well-drained. He isn't prone to mud fever.

He does well on the Alfa A and BC - and I specifically chose to feed the BC b/c it also contains magnesium, oil, a pro-biotic to support his gut and a respiratory supplement (as well as the biotin/lysine) . . . before we landed on this feeding regime he was getting pink powder, calmer, oil, biotin and something to support his respiration - all as separate supplements.

I need to change something - as I said the HH and BC aren't supporting horn growth adequately - some kind folks recommended Formula 4 Feet and reading up it does sound excellent - but there's alot of overlap b/w what's in that and what's in the BC. But if I switch from BC to F4F, I'll need to give him something else to support his gut and act as a calmer (so back to pink powder and a calmer?).

Just to complicate matters even more, he's on full livery and we're thinking about switching him over to the yard feed (which is included in my livery fees) - Chestnut Feed. Chestnut is a fibre-based, chaff-type feed with additional vitamins and minerals. I had said that I would continue to feed BC alongside, but now I'm wondering if we need to completely rethink his nutrition.

Options are:

- Leave him on current feed/supps but just up the HH quantities - not convinced that would work

- Leave him on Alfa A and BC and find another hoof supplement - just straight biotin?

- Leave him on Alfa A, switch to F4F and then add in pink powder, calmer and something for his respiration (garlic and honey?)

- Switch to Chestnut, find another balancer that isn't so duplicative (need to find out more about what exactly is IN Chestnut) and then add in supps for gut/brain/lungs

- Switch to Chestnut, add F4F and pink powder, calmer and respiration stuff

Sigh.

Why is this so difficult? Thoughts?

Like most horses, he does not tolerate sugars well (they send him right round the twist) . . . alfalfa and soya oil seem to be fine. He hates ProCalm and ProFeet (liquid or granules) and he won't touch any of the Global Herbs supplements either (fussy little twit). We tried Blue Chip Karma and it didn't seem to work - not sure why. I really want to keep his feed as simple as possible . . . and I do want to be mindful about what the yard feeds - they're more than willing to do what I want - and if he doesn't get on with the Chestnut he won't have it, pure and simple, but if it works then why not feed him what I'm already paying for?

Tapas and dry sherry for all who got this far . Any and all suggestions welcome.

N
 
I have heard good reviews about chestnut feeds so moving onto this wouldn't be an issue i wouldn't have thought. Just check the sugar and protein levels.

I have just been through a huge change in feed because of the alfa, sugar etc so my feed is now free from alfa and molasses.

At the moment they get simple systems chaff and ride & relax from allen and page. They will also get fast fibre during winter to bulk out the feed without adding calories. The ride and relax has probiotic in it. They also get codlivine plus as a broad spectrum balancer (this helps feet also) and brewers yeast (they itch). I am however thinking of going back to pink powder because both mine are good doers and only using up the codlivine as it was given to me.

I was contemplating using chestnut feeds but there are no suppliers near me but i will be changing the simple systems chaff when finished to Badminton Easy rider.
 
My preference is to feed a simple feed, and add to that. It makes it much easier to separate what is and isn't working.

I guess my choice would be something basic, like speed beet or a chaff with F4F or Equine Answers 365. Then review how things are - you may find you don't need a calmer, or separate respiratory supp.

Few questions /pointers though:

1) I dont imagine he is getting his full ration of BC a day, so is there any point in feeding it at those quantities if its not giving him a full RDA of nutrients?

2) Biotin fed on its own is often ineffective, it requires (copper/calcium/zinc - or something!!) to be absorbed - it will just be pooped out if the other thing required isn't there.

3) If he needs more condition add something like micronised linseed - £25 for a 20kg sack, and fantastic for skin/hoof/hair growth :)

4) Why does he need respiratory supp?
 
Innocence said:
I have heard good reviews about chestnut feeds so moving onto this wouldn't be an issue i wouldn't have thought. Just check the sugar and protein levels.

I have just been through a huge change in feed because of the alfa, sugar etc so my feed is now free from alfa and molasses.

At the moment they get simple systems chaff and ride & relax from allen and page. They will also get fast fibre during winter to bulk out the feed without adding calories. The ride and relax has probiotic in it. They also get codlivine plus as a broad spectrum balancer (this helps feet also) and brewers yeast (they itch). I am however thinking of going back to pink powder because both mine are good doers and only using up the codlivine as it was given to me.

I was contemplating using chestnut feeds but there are no suppliers near me but i will be changing the simple systems chaff when finished to Badminton Easy rider.
Click to expand...

I've spoken to the Chestnut Feeds rep and she's given me the sugar/protein content of their feeds - they're marginally lower than the Alfa A he's currently on so I'm happy with that. All the horses at our yard are on Chestnut - a wide variety of horses and ponies - and all do very well on this feed - no'one's particularly silly and all have good condition.

I guess I just need to figure out whether to leave him on the BC or switch to another balancer - and, if so, which one. It's the support of hoof growth that's really doing my head in/driving these changes.

He is running out of Alfa A so YM is beginning to introduce the Chestnut slowly this week . . . we'll see how he does.

P
 
popularfurball said:
My preference is to feed a simple feed, and add to that. It makes it much easier to separate what is and isn't working.

I guess my choice would be something basic, like speed beet or a chaff with F4F or Equine Answers 365. Then review how things are - you may find you don't need a calmer, or separate respiratory supp.

Few questions /pointers though:

1) I dont imagine he is getting his full ration of BC a day, so is there any point in feeding it at those quantities if its not giving him a full RDA of nutrients?

2) Biotin fed on its own is often ineffective, it requires (copper/calcium/zinc - or something!!) to be absorbed - it will just be pooped out if the other thing required isn't there.

3) If he needs more condition add something like micronised linseed - £25 for a 20kg sack, and fantastic for skin/hoof/hair growth :)

4) Why does he need respiratory supp?
Click to expand...

So the Chestnut is a chaff-based feed (nice and simple) and the question is whether to leave him on the BC (and increase the dose - you're right that he's not getting the full wack) or give him F4F - but then I'm back to wanting to give him something to support his gut, a calmer, oil, etc. And answers to your questions:

1) You're quite right - may just up the BC and see if that makes a difference to his feet
2) There's copper, calcium and zinc in the BC to support absorption of additional biotin
3) He doesn't need more condition than he currently has but we're going into winter, his workload has increased and he drops weight pretty easily - if I can keep the condition on him with his current feed that would be ideal - last winter we added Speedibeet which worked wonders - could do the same this winter
4) He can make a slight noise when galloping and is prone to coughs - he also suffers from hayfever in the Spring - however, now that he's outside alot more (from about 3pm to about 9 am), is bedded on good quality straw (it's not dusty at all) and is fed haylage rather than hay, I may be able to drop the respiratory supp.

Why is feeding so complicated?

P
 
I would also, if you can bear it, feed haulage from the floor. I find that is the one thing which makes the biggest difference to Silver.

I would just run with the chaff and blue chip or the F4F at full doses... then look at other things 6 weeks down the line (or before if necessary). Save pennies where you can!
 
Have you looked at equine answers 365, I found it good for keeping weight on LL during the winter, equine answers also do one for guts which incs vit/mins.

If you giving him oil do you think that could affect his guts ? I would try what PFB has mentioned and look at linseed. Charnwood mill sell it or try some local feed shops to see if they buy it in off them. If i remember right micronised linseed is better than linseed pellats as a higher oil content.

If he were mine I would try him on the feed you pay for. Depending on the vit/min content I would opt for EQ 365 and linseed.
 
popularfurball said:
I would also, if you can bear it, feed haulage from the floor. I find that is the one thing which makes the biggest difference to Silver.

I would just run with the chaff and blue chip or the F4F at full doses... then look at other things 6 weeks down the line (or before if necessary). Save pennies where you can!
Click to expand...

We feed all forage from the floor - so much better for the horses :). He gets a skip full - but it's dumped on the floor. Yes, it's a little wasteful - but rooting through his straw to find the last morsels keeps him busy ;).

Yes - I do think we need to up the BC to full dose and see what that does.

P
 
Libbylou said:
Have you looked at equine answers 365, I found it good for keeping weight on LL during the winter, equine answers also do one for guts which incs vit/mins.

If you giving him oil do you think that could affect his guts ? I would try what PFB has mentioned and look at linseed. Charnwood mill sell it or try some local feed shops to see if they buy it in off them. If i remember right micronised linseed is better than linseed pellats as a higher oil content.

If he were mine I would try him on the feed you pay for. Depending on the vit/min content I would opt for EQ 365 and linseed.
Click to expand...

Exactly what my conclusions are and what I'm switching madam too at some point.

The other one I've looked at is the feel good 30 veteran one - it has extra joint help and linseed and gut help in it :) I wasn't feeding it because of it being veteran but because what it contains.
 
One my current 'bees in my bonnett' :redface: is iron content - apparantly too much reduces the zinc/copper uptake, and results in poor hoof quality. Because Iron is relatively cheap and most people remember from school that iron is needed by red blood cells, supplement manufacturers wack loads in, when in fact most horses get more than enough from their grass and forage, so end up with excess iron - it also causes those bleached out coats seen on bays/browns in the summer (others horses coats are affected too, just less visible)

I am currently investigating pure feeds, which seems to have a better balance, inc probiotics etc
http://www.thepurefeedcompany.com/products/pure-balance
 
popularfurball said:
Exactly what my conclusions are and what I'm switching madam too at some point.

The other one I've looked at is the feel good 30 veteran one - it has extra joint help and linseed and gut help in it :) I wasn't feeding it because of it being veteran but because what it contains.
Click to expand...

Ive not looked at the feel good 30 range closely, the thing that put me off was it only covered 30 days, you might get more with madam being smaller ? 365 Can be bought to cover longer and I felt I could dose it better....not sure that makes sense.

I also use a joint supplement suppleease gold so could over do it with extra joint help. Might be worth a look for Nimbus65

I recently bought Kevin Bacon hoof treatment and its working really well a lot better than effol.
 
[QUOTEI am currently investigating pure feeds, which seems to have a better balance, inc probiotics etc
http://www.thepurefeedcompany.com/products/pure-balance][/QUOTE]

The pure feed company are offering a free mobile weigh in service at the moment, they will bring a mobile weighbridge to your yard and weigh your pone and give free diet advice, they are comming to ours on Friday at 9.30am, I'm thinking of running a 'book' to see who can most accurately guess the weight of their pone!
 
Yes, a pot last both of mine a month!!! But at £12 a pot I can't complain!

I only put them on it because pig was licking the Walls, but he is still licking Te Walls so not stopped that!!
 
Talibutts said:
[QUOTEI am currently investigating pure feeds, which seems to have a better balance, inc probiotics etc
http://www.thepurefeedcompany.com/products/pure-balance]
Click to expand...

The pure feed company are offering a free mobile weigh in service at the moment, they will bring a mobile weighbridge to your yard and weigh your pone and give free diet advice, they are comming to ours on Friday at 9.30am, I'm thinking of running a 'book' to see who can most accurately guess the weight of their pone![/QUOTE]

oooh exciting:dance: Is there a minimum number of horses they will come out for, do you know? Is is nationwide?
 
I can also reccomend Clair MacLeod MSc RNutr she has wrote a book 'the truth about feeding your horse' and she is running a few seminars, she is on Facebook too!
 
I don't know how feasible it is to improve feet just by tweaking the bucket feed, even if you do have a forage analysis done, although that might give you a clue if there's something short or in excess. I think the haylage and grazing will have a much bigger impact so it may be that you're just tinkering round the edges of the problem, and feeding different balancers and supplements can simply be guesswork and pot luck.

The other thing, assuming your horse is shod is that a spell out of shoes to rest them from being continually nailed might do as much good if not more than a change of feed.
 
Do you put any supplements on his feet?

Feet need moisture and he is stood in on straw and out in boots, could it be that he needs some moisture in his feet?

If feet are bad I would soak in water for 5 mins each and apply something like Kevin Bacons which will help keep that moisture in.

Maybe daft, but cant hurt along with looking at feed.:redface:
 
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