Ginny is going for a bone scan

[chunky monkey]

If I read right it's been about 5 weeks since you first posted. If she's obviously limping then I would give some form of daily pain relief. Soft tissue injuries take months to heel. Time is a good heeler.
If she goes chronic lame and shows no improvement by the end of the year then it's only fair to let her go. If she seems field sound and you can keep her that way I would keep her occupied by bringing in daily, perhaps (not knowing your set up) bring in whilst you exercise the others then turn back out with them. I wouldn't stable for hours if she's going to go out and hooley round and it makes her unhappy. But a could of hours stabled should be fine. If it's routinely done she would get use to being stood in for 1-2 hours a day.
Also to keep her calm in the field and as she's young I would consider some form of in hand walk out on your hacking routes. Only 20 minutes but it keeps the brain stimulated. Not everyday but every other, again get a routine. Maybe walk out then stable whilst you exercise the others. So she knows that she's had her exercise and your doing her friends then she can go out.
My vet advised to keep my horse in work to keep the muscling to support his back issues when I talked about retiring mine. I would think a sensible in-hand walk out helps to keep the muscles in the legs but shouldn't cause additional problems if done controlled and regular.

 

[newforest]

She wasn't happy when you viewed her and she didn't pass the vetting.
A vet should not have said it's fine if they couldn't do the flexion because the animal protested. It protested for a reason.

The one sentence that stands out for me is.
'If she is paddock sound I am more than happy to rest her for an extended period'

So try that and reassess in the Spring. If she really is so tight and so lame her body needs time to recover. She is still growing as well so you don't want anything effecting that either.
As she arrived malnourished, poor etc she probably needed turning away for six months on arrival. It can take months to rebuild condition and muscle, for sores to heal and adjust to a new herd, routine and owners.
She needs time to just be at the moment.

She isn't hopping lame in walk so I would turn away. You wouldn't be taking out inhand if you thought she was in serious pain. She would be on bute until the very scans again?

 

[Jessey]

For me if she is proven (by further blocking) not to have improved at all with rest so far then I'd not want to leave her for 6 months in the hopes something might improve without doing something to manage the pain, if however she has improved with rest then further rest could be a good option, its difficult to judge without really knowing what is going on with her.

 

[Mary Poppins]

I really feel you, it is a horrible situation to find yourself in.

I would not want to turn away until I knew what the problem was. Ginny reminds me of a horse we had our yard. The horse was lovely (also a grey) who passed a 5 stage vetting and was bought to event. She came from a very reputable dealer but was originally raised in Ireland. The horse was only 6 years old. All started well, but after some months the horse started to dislike being mounted and would move away from the block. She then started napping and bucking and her owner had several falls. After months of intervention from instructors (who initially told her to work through it) and vet treatment including an MRI, they diagnosed her with a multitude of problems, the main one being aggressive degenerative joint disease which was rapidly spreading throughout her whole body affecting most of her joints. She was lame on all 4 legs and in pain everywhere and unfortunately there was no treatment.

I'm not saying that this is what Ginny has, but if it did turn out to be something like this, turning her away with no drugs or intervention is not going to help her. However, if she did have a soft tissue injury (e.g. a tendon problem which was likely to heal given time), field turnout may well be beneficial. My point is that you are in the middle of a diagnostic plan working with your vet, and I think it would be madness to put a stop to that in favour of turning her out in the field for 6 months and hoping she will be sound when she comes back in. If I were you, I would want to get to the bottom of what is wrong with her, and then you can decide on the best course of treatment.

I also agree that some horses benefit from being worked. When Ben had his stifle injections he was off work for 6 weeks with nightly turnout, and he became very grumpy and very difficult. He even bit me which is completely out of character for him. My vet said that this could be due to the arthritis making him stiff because he is not one for moving much in the field. After a few days of hacking out in walk, his old lovely personality came back. I know he is much happier when in work and would only rest him completely if it was absolutely necessary.

So all in all, I would say keep going with your vet, but you are right to think about the eventual outcome of all this. When Ben was at his worst he was lame on 3 bute per day and I was thinking that the end had come for us. But he turned a huge corner when his shoes came off, and now we have hope for the future. But there is no way I would have kept him alive if I wasn't 100% sure that he was field sound. It is cruel to keep a horse in pain and while I agree that she needs to be given a chance to get better, for me it isn't ethical to keep a horse who I know is suffering.

 

[MrC]

So the pony didn’t pass a vetting as the vet failed to complete the vetting but recommended you bought the pony anyway?? Couldn’t complete a flexion test but passed as suitable for eventing??

So who were these vets??? Sounds like your dodgy dealer has a pet dodgy vet.

This story just gets more and more fantastical are people just that desperate to have something to jump and compete on they will buy completely unsuitable animals.

If she were mine she be on field rest with minimal pain relief gradually phased out until Xmas then checked again. Shoes off roughed off proper hunt style and left to it. If she didn’t come right then it would be PTS. Too young to be this broken and kept around if not showing signs of healing. Poor pony.

 

[Orenoko]

I read your post yesterday about her history when you bought her and the vetting does sound unusual but what's done is done. You are doing your best for her and trying to get to the root of it. I can imagine she may have been passed from home to home under different circumstances for being 'difficult'.

She is due back for more tests soon so I suppose all you can do is wait and see what the results are. It must be horrible not knowing if she is in pain all the time or how much pain she might be feeling. If your vet agrees then perhaps turning her away for a few months would help (with regular check ups to make sure she's okay) once you know the results of her next set of tests.

Given what you mentioned about the dealer having a CCJ against him/her, would you consider taking action against them yourself? It sounds like they are selling unsuitable horses to people and at the end of the day it's the animals that suffer as well as the owners. I also think the vet has something to answer for passing the vetting without being able to complete it fully. We put our faith in professionals and their knowledge and this might have shown up (then again it might not have given how stoic you say she is).

 

[Cortrasna]

Interesting about the vet passing her fit for eventing when she was underweight, no muscle and refused to have hind legs lifted? She has very quickly since then been asked to perform as a child's all round eventing pony - a big ask far too soon IMO - but obviously that is just my view and not a criticism of your decisions with your child's pony. Out of interest how is she now with having her hind legs lifted? Is she still showing some reluctance - did the vet try backing her up (a significant distance in view of the fact she wouldnt let him lift her hinds?) Has she been tested for PSSM? Just a vague thought in amongst the dying brain cells.

 

[KP nut]

She wasn't happy when you viewed her and she didn't pass the vetting.
A vet should not have said it's fine if they couldn't do the flexion because the animal protested. It protested for a reason.

The one sentence that stands out for me is.
'If she is paddock sound I am more than happy to rest her for an extended period'

So try that and reassess in the Spring. If she really is so tight and so lame her body needs time to recover. She is still growing as well so you don't want anything effecting that either.
As she arrived malnourished, poor etc she probably needed turning away for six months on arrival. It can take months to rebuild condition and muscle, for sores to heal and adjust to a new herd, routine and owners.
She needs time to just be at the moment.

She isn't hopping lame in walk so I would turn away. You wouldn't be taking out inhand if you thought she was in serious pain. She would be on bute until the very scans again?

Vet was unconcerned about the flexions. We had a long chat about it. It's a part of the vetting that plenty of young, not very well handled horses don't like. And I am not surprised - it's hyper-flexing a joint for 45-60 seconds - not something that happens in normal handling. Within a few weeks of buying her with daily handling of her feet she had no problem being shod behind.

I did not feel turning away was necessary or useful when we got her. She was unfit and under-muscled so she needed exercise and good grub. She was fittended up slowly and carefully with frequent physio and she was fine until February/March - 5 - 6 months. Fit, healthy, toned, calm, willing and increasingly trusting - though as I have said before never as relaxed and contented and my others which always worried me. I now believe she has always been in some degree of pain which would explain a lot. But that things got much, much worse during Feb/March when the napping started. Or maybe she just realised she was allowed to protest and would not be punished for it. I don't know. But in any case she clearly has something significantly wrong with her physically which was only picked up when she deteriorated to a point where she could no longer function despite her stoicism.

Re the in-hand walking - it does worry me because I don't know if she is in pain or not but she seems to enjoy the walks anyway. I am just following the vet's rehab plan. He seemed to think movement was good. We are doing walk in straight lines, over poles and some backing up and baited stretches. I don't know what it is all supposed to achieve but I am not an expert and am doing what I have been advised to do by the people who are.

If she is paddock sound then I will discuss next steps with the vet. I have no time scale in mind, I will do what is right for her. The problem is that I don't think she is going to be sound and I am genuinely surprised at the number of people who would be willing to turn away a pony in constant, invisible pain with no diagnosis or treatment plan.

But I will find out one way or another soon enough.

Thanks to all those who have offered support. It is an awful situation and my poor daughter is beside herself.

 

[KP nut]

Given what you mentioned about the dealer having a CCJ against him/her, would you consider taking action against them yourself? It sounds like they are selling unsuitable horses to people and at the end of the day it's the animals that suffer as well as the owners. I also think the vet has something to answer for passing the vetting without being able to complete it fully. We put our faith in professionals and their knowledge and this might have shown up (then again it might not have given how stoic you say she is).

Thanks for your kind words.

Re claiming against the dealer, I don't think I have a leg to stand on tbh. Pony was passed fit by a well known, well respected local equine vet. There's no dodgy vetting claim there I don't think. And to be fair to the dealer Ginny was ok for the first few months. Yes she was not in great shape but we knew that when we bought her and we accepted that she was unfit, a bit poor and needed a lot of TLC. But there was nothing in the vetting that caused the vet any concerns at all. Amber was very similar when she first came to me. And she is absolutely thriving now. Had her 5 stage vetted too and it was the same story really - unfit, weak, thin but underneath all that a really nice horse. And Ginny is a lovely, lovely pony. Even if I did have a claim against the dealer I would not dream of sending her back anyway!

 

[lauren123]

I havent read all of the replies. But here are my two cents. Personally if she is in that much pain i wouldnt want to completely turn her away with no pain relief. Different kettle of fish i know. But in the end with sox i turned him away with no work for
.. it was a year i think if not more. But we had already tried alot of options with not much working.
However the thing that is bugging me almost and its easy for me as i arent emotionally involved. But i just think if she is in that much pain and is a complex case at 6. What would the future hold? If sge wasnt ever going to be in work again as a example. Wpuld you be willing to keep her as a pet?
I would also take it day by day but i would want to know exactly what it is that i am dealing with no.matter how big. Once you know you can then start makinh steps to go forward or have more of a plan.

 

[Cortrasna]

The problem is that I don't think she is going to be sound and I am genuinely surprised at the number of people who would be willing to turn away a pony in constant, invisible pain with no diagnosis or treatment plan.

At no point did I read anywhere that it has been suggested by myself or other people you 'throw' the pony out regardless of what pain it might or might not be in - obviously IF the pony is in considerable pain then a monitored degree of pain medication could very easily be given along with therapeutic turn away surely you understood that from any of us that suggested that as a possible idea when you have come to the end of the investigations etc. that your vet and the other professionals are currently recommending? personally if the pony is happy doing the low level outings in hand that you are doing I would not think the pain level was particularly high......a horse in a high and terminal level of pain that you seem to suspect, would simply not co-operate with any movement asked of it I would imagine?

I had assumed that you wanted a few more possible ideas slightly outside the current box of thinking from you earlier post? And your feeling that the outcome is going to be very grim and a death sentence for the pony. for this reason I for one have suggested that your 5 year old pony, with a very iffy history mentally and physically should at least be given the good old fashioned last resort chance of being turned away to Dr. Green AND medicated if a vet feels the pain warrants it. This is of course if after the next lot of tests nothing concrete can be found and you feel you have to have the pony shot for whatever reason.

I do feel for your daughter, very very much - tis heartbreaking when at a young age you first learn the reality of owning and enjoying your pony of a lifetime and a cruel twist of fate robs you of them - but that is a very useful and painful lesson in horse ownership for a child to learn. It is not all just going out and buying lovely ponys and then changing them for another each time your current one falls below expectations or has health issues that will possibly end it s life or stop you competing on it. sometimes we are stuck with what we bought and we have to put aside the dreams we had and devote our time to that ponys well being as best we can.....good news is though, many, many children's competition ponys that have broken down have gone on to be much loved and cherished children's happy hacker ponys of a lifetime. I sincerely hope this will be the outcome for Ginny.

 

[KP nut]

I havent read all of the replies. But here are my two cents. Personally if she is in that much pain i wouldnt want to completely turn her away with no pain relief. Different kettle of fish i know. But in the end with sox i turned him away with no work for
.. it was a year i think if not more. But we had already tried alot of options with not much working.
However the thing that is bugging me almost and its easy for me as i arent emotionally involved. But i just think if she is in that much pain and is a complex case at 6. What would the future hold? If sge wasnt ever going to be in work again as a example. Wpuld you be willing to keep her as a pet?
I would also take it day by day but i would want to know exactly what it is that i am dealing with no.matter how big. Once you know you can then start makinh steps to go forward or have more of a plan.

Hi Lauren. You have been through the mill with Sox and came out the other side which is great. Long may it continue!
I am still very much hoping that we get some good news on Thursday. I am really hoping there is at least SOME improvement when we re-block her next week. Any progress would do - as it would suggest that we can get her paddock sound even if we need more time to get there.

But I have thought about my options just because it is hard not to. Even though really I am probably going through worst-case-scenarios too soon. Basically it all comes down to her soundness. If she is not in pain then yes I will keep her long term regardless of whether she can be ridden again. But if she is in pain and we can't resolve it then I would let her go. But I also have a couple of names of other vets - one at Newmarket and one a barefoot specialist. I would send her scans and xrays for 2nd and 3rd opinions first. But I would not let her suffer long term and I agree with you about not turning away in unresolved pain.

 

[Mary Poppins]

I havent read all of the replies. But here are my two cents. Personally if she is in that much pain i wouldnt want to completely turn her away with no pain relief. Different kettle of fish i know. But in the end with sox i turned him away with no work for
.. it was a year i think if not more. But we had already tried alot of options with not much working.
However the thing that is bugging me almost and its easy for me as i arent emotionally involved. But i just think if she is in that much pain and is a complex case at 6. What would the future hold? If sge wasnt ever going to be in work again as a example. Wpuld you be willing to keep her as a pet?
I would also take it day by day but i would want to know exactly what it is that i am dealing with no.matter how big. Once you know you can then start makinh steps to go forward or have more of a plan.

I think you have hit the nail on the head. It is just such a sad situation to be in for everyone involved and tragic for a 6 year old to be in such a bad way. I agree that I would want to know what was going on before any long term plans were made. Let’s hope that the vet finds something treatable and that this has a happy ending. It is every horse owners worst nightmare.

 

[lauren123]

Hi Lauren. You have been through the mill with Sox and came out the other side which is great. Long may it continue!
I am still very much hoping that we get some good news on Thursday. I am really hoping there is at least SOME improvement when we re-block her next week. Any progress would do - as it would suggest that we can get her paddock sound even if we need more time to get there.

But I have thought about my options just because it is hard not to. Even though really I am probably going through worst-case-scenarios too soon. Basically it all comes down to her soundness. If she is not in pain then yes I will keep her long term regardless of whether she can be ridden again. But if she is in pain and we can't resolve it then I would let her go. But I also have a couple of names of other vets - one at Newmarket and one a barefoot specialist. I would send her scans and xrays for 2nd and 3rd opinions first. But I would not let her suffer long term and I agree with you about not turning away in unresolved pain.

Its alot easier said then done,believe me. But try not to let your head run away with you until you have the results on thursday.
Sometimes they do just need a very ling period of rest to sort them out. I think its handy to have a few other vets. I would still speak to them about lami. To keep the vets thinking or to rule it out. I know they said they didnt think it was but then my vets nevee thought sox would, but he proved them wrong. Though he is special.
Just to add you couñd try pulling the shoes as a last attempt. With me I couldnt have live with myself knowing that there could have been a option for sox. So i wanted to try every option possible. Before I called it a day. Atleast then i wouñd have known i tried every possibly option going.

 

[Orenoko]

Thanks for your kind words.

Re claiming against the dealer, I don't think I have a leg to stand on tbh. Pony was passed fit by a well known, well respected local equine vet. There's no dodgy vetting claim there I don't think. And to be fair to the dealer Ginny was ok for the first few months. Yes she was not in great shape but we knew that when we bought her and we accepted that she was unfit, a bit poor and needed a lot of TLC. But there was nothing in the vetting that caused the vet any concerns at all. Amber was very similar when she first came to me. And she is absolutely thriving now. Had her 5 stage vetted too and it was the same story really - unfit, weak, thin but underneath all that a really nice horse. And Ginny is a lovely, lovely pony. Even if I did have a claim against the dealer I would not dream of sending her back anyway!

I understand completely where you're coming from, it would be incredibly difficult andv probably not worth the stress on top of trying to get her well again. I just wonder whether the dealer knew she had an issue or injury somewhere down the line. Not that it makes a difference now.

Completely different scenario but I have a disabled pet who was on appearance fit and well when I adopted him but actually had an underlying issue that hadn't been properly treated. He deteriorated hugely within a short time but has come out the other side, albeit with some issues! It's nowhere like the level of investment that a horse needs but I understand you thinking about the worst case scenario - it can't be helped sometimes and nobody wants an animal to be in pain. I hope you can get some answers on Thursday and that she's improved a bit.

 

[newforest]

Regardless of what's wrong it's looking like months of rehab. That's possibly why people feel letting nature step in is worth looking at. If it's tendon or muscle it takes as long as it takes to heal.
Mine was box rested for three months and then 6-8 weeks slowly bringing back into work. That was one leg let alone all of them and we had a diagnosis

I would take each day at a time. If you don't know if she is paddock sound you don't know if she's actually improved. I would hope the back would be freer and the meds have helped.
See what they say Thursday and go from there. I also want a diagnosis because I can't see how they can formulate a care plan without it.

 

[KP nut]

I am leaving NR.
Once again the lovely supportive and contstructive comments from the majority have been overshadowed by posts that are breathtaking in their nastiness, their presumptive arrogance and their hectoring, bullying judgemental tone.
It's not a flounce, it is a sad farewell.

I am on FB if anyone wants to stay in touch. PM me.

XXX

 

[MrC]

KP people are supportive when you aren’t only telling them half of a story. On HHO you are a completely different person, fawning over the eventing community there, no mention of all the NH stuff you were trying to force Amber to accept that you rented on about on here. You don’t tell them stuff you put on here and you talked about your new pony on there before on here. You are talking out of two sides of a face on different public platforms. It catches up with you. That’s what people get exasperated about.

You don’t want support you want approval and for people to soothe your ego, to tell you what a good girl you are. You have created a completely different gushing persona over there. That persona gets that, but you haven’t shown them the side we have seen. THat forum would eat you alive for some of the stuff you have put on here and you must know that to have made up a completely new person.

Very well leave but you cannot really blame those who have questions about what you are doing and trying to understand when you don’t give the full information.

 

[KP nut]

I am pulling together a full time-line of Ginny so I popped back over here to check certain dates etc to help me pull it all together for the vet. I just saw the gem above.

@MrC I have been entirely honest on HHO and on my blog. I am precisely the same person there as here and everywhere else.

I don''t 'fawn over' the eventing community, I LIKE the eventing community! And I have just evented for a full season for the first time. What else would I talk about? I don't 'gush' I am pleased when people do well and tell them so. But outside of eventing I have discussed Buck Brannaman, Guy Robertson, Cowboy dressage and barefoot there. I have discussed Ginny's napping and lameness. I have transitioned to barefoot there. I have asked questions when feeling stuck there. As for being 'eaten alive', I have engaged in plenty of threads there that have been constructive, positive and helpful for which I would have been 'eaten alive' here by people like you. This thread for example I literally cut and pasted the NH stuff I 'never mention' from here!

https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/threads/buck-brannaman-2019.768526/

It is not me that has invented a new person but you. You have simply made up the person you think I am - no idea why - and have spent months - well years actually - trolling me for pretty much anything and everything. You have been abusive, hostile and cruel even when your attacks are completely nonsensical. You attempt to gaslight me by ignoring what I ACTUALLY say and do and just responding to issues you make up such as 'the NH stuff I was trying to force Amber to accept" Just didn't happen. I use Western ideas flexibly in my training and riding. Always have, still do, always will, freely discussed regularly on HHO and never 'forced' on an unwilling horse. Amber is doing great by the way. We have a wonderful partnership.

You literally destroyed my confidence and made me question everything and afraid of posting anything. Thank Christ I'm out of here and don't have to put up with it anymore.

 

[MrC]

Well you came back with a bang didn’t you? Then that’s your style
KP honestly go back to your own little universe as to be perfectly frank (as per usual I suppose) right now I have absolutely no time nor energy for your drama.

Go enjoy your horses and take you blame game elsewhere if you don’t like plain truth then go back to your back patting fairy land.