help!!!!! advice needed on lightness and spooking!!!

HorseManiac

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Dec 19, 2005
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With Percy:)
how do you teach lightness to a horse? i think once he gets it will *hopefully* solve a *little* bit of our bolting when scared issue.

on that subject. when he sees something he hated he will stare at it for a while and i will pat him to *try* to calm his nerves. but reading kelly marks perfect partners...i shouldnt. anyway i cant get him to move . weve stood there for 20 mins and he still wont go forward. then suddenly he will spin round and bolt.

help!!!!:eek: :eek: :)
 
how do you teach lightness to a horse? i think once he gets it will *hopefully* solve a *little* bit of our bolting when scared issue.

on that subject. when he sees something he hated he will stare at it for a while and i will pat him to *try* to calm his nerves. but reading kelly marks perfect partners...i shouldnt. anyway i cant get him to move . weve stood there for 20 mins and he still wont go forward. then suddenly he will spin round and bolt.

help!!!!:eek: :eek: :)

Horsemaniac - this is a word thing but I think you want *softness* not lightness :cool:

I rode my mare at a Mark Rashid clinic in Feb 05. Fi finds the world a very scary place and "spookiness" was what I asked to work on. I have watched a fair few of his clinics since, and it seems everything starts with "softness".

He talks about softness being about the *whole* horse whereas "lightness" is on the outside only.

With a spooky horse, they need to be between hand and leg the whole time. And to do that they need to be soft.

Mark R also talks about redirecting the energy (so he may use turns to refocus a distracted horse). Again to do this they have to be soft.

With Fi, if she starts to do the giraffe-eyes-on-stalks act, I ask her for softness and often for a turn. She has (is) learnt that she should relax at that stage. It is about getting her into a better state of mind.

(Patting the horse doesn't really help them see you as a leader and in a way is rewarding their response - i.e. saying "how great it is that you do this" !)

Fi is loads better than she was. The weather has not been great here so I rode yesterday, and a week before that. Both times she had minor "oh my god" moments but did not freak out :)

(need to go and check something in the oven - so will stop rambling now. But there are reviews and notes from previous clinics Mark has done - posted on this board - so I suggest you take a look it see if it makes sense ?)
 
(Patting the horse doesn't really help them see you as a leader and in a way is rewarding their response - i.e. saying "how great it is that you do this" !)
Sorry to hijack but OMG!! :eek: Lightbulb moment - I have never thought of it that way cvb, I've always thought of it as reassurance.... but now you've said that it's so obvious.... Thanks :)

(erm.... so how WOULD you offer reassurance??? :p )
 
yes domane... my exact question i was going to ask!!
echoe will be off ridden work until his back is sorted. so i will be teaching ''softness:p'' through long reining and lungeing:D

Anneli
x:)
 
(Patting the horse doesn't really help them see you as a leader and in a way is rewarding their response - i.e. saying "how great it is that you do this" !)

I too never thought of it like that!:eek: So if your horse is spooking at something what is the best way to handel it, to show him your the leader?
 
When they spook, you put their feet to work... this tells them that you're still the boss, in control, directing movement of the herd, and not scared. It's when they relax that they get the petting - the reward.
 
(erm.... so how WOULD you offer reassurance??? :p )


By being confident!

We've all seen it ... your horse gets spooked, your heart jumps and you wonder what he's going to do, your horse sees you getting worried and now KNOWS that there's something to worry about .... and so it keeps spiralling down!

It is easier said than done but even if you fake it to start with (sit up instead of going into the 'fatal' crouch etc) you'll soon feel more confident anyway.

If you know the horse it's easier to know what to do, Saffy, for example is better if she can stand and look at the scary thing. She looks, does her stallion impression, grows 5 hands, snorts at it, edges up to it, sniffs it and then ignores it .... As Kate says, she gets the reward pats for when she relaxes and stays calm. I wouldn't punish her for spooking but I will reward the 'good' behaviour.
 
I've been EXTREMELY lucky with Cherry.... pretty much nothing fazes her so I am very confident... on the one or two occasions when she has had a minor spook, I just laugh and carry on.... but with Indy-baby I'm expecting a lot more distress so it's good to be prepared..... thanks :)
 
I find it helps to say "Big brave boy! Big brave boy!" in a loud and encouraging tone as you bounce forward, girafflelike, too. Though it is a bit embarrassing when the scary parked car turns out to have someone sitting in it :eek:
 
Sorry to hijack but OMG!! :eek: Lightbulb moment - I have never thought of it that way cvb, I've always thought of it as reassurance.... but now you've said that it's so obvious.... Thanks :)

(erm.... so how WOULD you offer reassurance??? :p )

OK, so can you think of a time when you were a child and scared ? Say you don't like storms and lightening ? How did the adults around you behave and what reassured you ?

personally if an adult did the "ooo yes its a bit scarey but we'll be ok won't we children ?" it didn't help :eek: But if an adult said "ok, so let's get on with our work shall we ?" then you got the message that it was no big deal cos they were not at all worried....

so as has already been mentioned, I "reassure" Fi by doing what I described above - redirecting her energy etc

BUT: there are times when you need to let the horse take a look or they will just fret about it. It really depends what they are doing. If they just need to take a look and then settle again, let 'em take a look.

We have a fell pony who is a diesel model ;) If he sees something, it takes at least a minute (which is a loooong time when you are sat on top!) for it to sink in. If you try and move his feet in that time, he gets flustered cos his brain is actually still occupied processing the visual info :rolleyes: So with him you have to give him more time.

I don't treat all horses the same. To use PNH language, long horses and short horses need to be treated like long horses and short horses (respectively) ;)
 
We have a fell pony who is a diesel model ;) If he sees something, it takes at least a minute (which is a loooong time when you are sat on top!) for it to sink in. If you try and move his feet in that time, he gets flustered cos his brain is actually still occupied processing the visual info :rolleyes: So with him you have to give him more time.
I have a husband like that :p
 
I have a husband like that :p


well until this evening, I'd have said "Lucky you !!" cos Duds (the fell pony) has a heart of gold.

But I had to lead him and Fi up in a really bad hail and rain storm tonight and he just b'd off :mad: Normally its my girl who's being nutty. We got everyone in safely (if a little damp !) tho
 
When your horse is clearly frightened of something watch his ears. At first both ears lock onto the frightening thing and then either both ears stay locked on and they talk themselves past it. In this situation I do nothing but allow them to work it out on their own they often do. Sometimes if its a bit more frightening they lock both ears on to said object at first then one ear turns back towards you this is them saying " What do you think?" When this happens ask them to walk on using voice/ leg or both.

The time that both ears are locked on is their thinking time and apart from talking to them possibly let them think about it. This is not a time to start patting and telling them their so good because yes it really is scary isnt it, save this till after they have passed it.

I follow these techniques with my 5 year old and he passes anything now. Oh the combine harvester just over the hedge was a definate 'run' moment though:eek:
 
Horsemaniac said:
how do you teach lightness to a horse?
By being light.

If the horse is not light (or not soft), it's because it hasn't learned lightness (or softness) as the predominate modus operand from the human. The human, as leader (i.e., the dominate party), sets and teaches the terms and conditions of the relationship.
Horsemaniac said:
i think once he gets it will *hopefully* solve a *little* bit of our bolting when scared issue.
"Bolting" is a behavior, and the human can very much affect behaviors. "Scared" is in its head - an emotional state, and the human cannot prevent this because humans cannot control the emotions in the horse's head. Emotions belong completely to each horse, just as your emotions belong completely to you.

But humans can influence emotions indirectly - through their behaviors.

If the horse learns that the human will take actions to support it and provide security when it is fearful, it will learn to manage its fear. We do this by giving the horse a safe place to go when it's afraid. ("Safe place to go" having physical as well as mental dimensions.) We give the horse the time and a safe space to work through its problem: Its fear. When the horse learns that we will do this, it will learn to manage its fear in a manner acceptable to us. But we have only influenced it.

Another way of looking at this is: Humans earn the behaviors they get from the horse. So if the human wants a different behavior from the horse (e.g., not bolting), then target that behavior and earn it through human behaviors.
Horsemaniac said:
...he will stare at it for a while and i will pat him to *try* to calm his nerves.
Very good behavior on your part; just the right thing to do. He's standing and looking (rather than blowing up), and you are rewarding him for standing and looking.

This is a variation of what John Lyons calls "spooking in place."

However, what you are actually doing when you rub or pet him is rewarding his behavior, not "calming his nerves." Why? Because only he can calm his nerves; that is, calm himself emotionally. (Just as he cannot calm your nerves.)

By rewarding the behavior you want, you are influencing his mind (and conditioning his behavior). (Just as his blowing up influences your emotions and conditions your behavior.)

The behavior you are rewarding is his standing and facing the fear-causing thing. This is exactly what he must do at some point if he's to learn to manage his fear; and he must be afforded the time and space to work through his emotional problem.

As long as he's doing the right thing: Not bolting, bucking, rearing, dancing all over the place, etc., and is standing still looking directly at the scary object, it's paramount that you reward his behavior: leave him alone (no kicking, pulling, scolding) and just pet him. Remember, the reward applies to the last action (behavior) he took, or is now taking: standing still and looking.

Do not put him to work just because he's standing there looking at the scary object; that is, just because he's trying to work it out in his mind. You must reward him as he IS working it out in his mind.

Just to reinforce the point: we reward the horse for standing and looking directly at whatever is scaring it. How else will it determine (i.e., work the issue through its mind) whether or not the thing is dangerous, and thereby assuage its fear? (Running away does NOT assuage fear of the object; only fear of being caught by the object; and not being caught reinforces running away.) Further, if we do not allow it the time and space to work it out mentally, how else do we teach it that it must learn to manage its fear in a productive manner? (Certainly not by teaching it that it should always flee when something might be dangerous.)

Learning to stand still and manage its fear is critical for any fearful domesticated horse, and is a fundamental difference between a feral horse or an under-trained horse, and a well-started horse.

As an example, in training a feral Mustang that is terrified of humans, or any horse that we are starting, we always reward the horse when it stops and stands and looks directly at the human. Same-same for scary objects.
Horsemaniac said:
...anyway i cant get him to move . weve stood there for 20 mins and he still wont go forward. then suddenly he will spin round and bolt.
Stop trying to go forward and instead work on the immediate training problem: His fear.

Let him stand there and work the problem through his mind. That is, working through the decision that (a) it's not a threat or, (b) he must flee or, (c) he must fight.

I guarantee that (if you or someone else doesn't crank up the pressure) he will not stand there being fearful beyond the next feed time.

At any point that he flees (i.e., bolts, rears, bucks, etc.), any productive exercise (such as circles or figure eights) wherein he moves his feet is appropriate; so that he is moving his feet. Then as he calms himself, ask him to stop and look again at the scary object. Don't try to get closer or try to stick it up his nose; just let him work it out.

If you are in a hurry and cannot take the time it takes for him to assuage is fear standing there - 20, 30, 280 minutes, beyond dinner time, etc., then go ahead and do any productive exercise wherein he moves his feet at that place. Moving his feet is in essence him "fleeing;" and Mother Nature has programmed him to maintain his fear only so far while he is fleeing; and you just gave him that safe place to go: a circle.

But in order that he NOT learn to flee every time, he must come back to standing and looking at the object. So as he calms himself, ask him to stop and look again at the scary object.

The end game is him coming to the conclusion that he will manage his fear without all of the wild and wooly behaviors. But you must allow him the time and space then and there to do that.

Best regards,
Harry
 
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wow - that was an interesting post Harry. I agree completely with what you have said although I do tend to just let my horse get on with working it through without fussing over him, I just sit there but as you say just letting him stand is in itself rewarding his behaviour.

I know by hurrying him to 'get on with it' has the opposite effect so we just wait and only if I get a sign of "what do you think" when he flicks his ear back at me do I ask him to walk on with my voice and slight leg aid and with that support from me he walks past.
 
Harry Hobbes

Missed you and your posts :D where've you been ?

That was a great post, and helps explain the difference I was making between Fi and Duds.... Fi is NOT standing still... Duds is :)
 
Isn't John Lyons a "Horses can only think about 1 thing at a time, so give them something to concerntrate on e.g. work so they can't think about the scary thing" person ?
 
lightness and spookiness

I am not quite sure what you mean by lightness in this respect. Do you mean that your horse is usually hollow and against your hand, and tense, and therefore you don't feel able to influence his body? There is so much that can cause this from feeling scared of environment (do some desensitising at home, ride with companion etc) through to riding position, saddle and bit comfort etc.

Re spooky objects my most successful technique is to ask the horse for one step nearer the object then I, not horse, ask for a halt. I look at the object and then ask for another step then again I stop the horse. So it is step, stop, step, stop. This way I am telling the horse that I, the leader, have seen the scary thing and am not going to blunder past it but slowly investigate. The horse seems either to appreciate taking time to check it out or/also realises that I am not foolishly or aggressively pushing the horse past and am evaluating it myself then taking a cautious step which fits with the horse's good sense. Seems to work for me anyway.
 
The weather abated enough for me to ride today and as I was riding Fi in the school, going down the long side which has all the scary stuff (vegetables, jumps and other stuff) along it - a rabbit scooted along and into its burrow just as we went past.

Fi reacted but DID NOT SPOOK :D :D :D

I was so proud of her ! Next time round she "told" me she'd like to take it a bit slower and have a look this time, but it was definately curiosity and not fear :)

...and it got me to thinking. I wouldn't have dared say this any earlier in case I jinxed myself - but I don't remember falling off cos she spooked at all last year ? Now is that my memory failing me or a milestones ? :D

(OK, so she was worked less last year because of her DJD etc but even so !)
 
thanks so MUCH guys. Ive taken it all in[just] and will try it. I took him out today and we had a breakthrough.
He stopped wouldnt budge. So i circled him 5 times on each rein then asked him if he wanted to go fowards. He Didnt. So did it again and he did. He know knows if e wont budge.. more work!!

THANKS SO MUCH AGAIN!
Anneli xx
 
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