Help!! Injecting Air Under the Skin????

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dreamer

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Dec 28, 1999
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PA, USA
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I train help out at and train for a farm with Rocky Mountain, Kentucky Mountain, and Mountain Pleasure Horses. The get them from Kentucky and sell them in Pa. They have been having trouble with their horses’ gaits and thought they had solved the problem with the farrier they currently are using. He's kind of a cocky know it all "I didn't need no schooling I've been doing this all my life" kind of guy. So naturally (since I went to college for Equine Science) we kind of clash at times. However, I have seen a little bit of improvement in some of the horses he's shod so I kind of just mind my own business, until today. I took one of the horses I was working out on a trail with one of the more quiet horses they own, and I noticed that he was very pacey and was difficult to even get him to walk right, all he wanted to do was pace. So I mentioned it to the farrier when we got back. He went over to him and pulled his skin out and tugged on it and then went in his truck and brought out a needle that was attached to a short hose and a little air thing (I don't know what they're called but they're on blood pressure gages that you use to pump them up with air). I asked him what he was doing and he just said 'watch this' as he stuck the needle under Scotch's skin and proceeded to put a big air bubble under his skin. I asked him again what he was doing and he said again just watch. He took the needle out, put it in another spot on his shoulder, and pumped that up as well. He then moved the air bubble around until it was over Scotch's shoulder. One of the owners of the farm was there and he just watched him do this, the other owner was outraged and very angry, but she wasn't there at the time to stop it and I had no say in the matter. The farrier's explanation was that the skin on his shoulder was too tight and this would allow it to move and he should gait better. He said "I've saved thousands of horses from going to the meat market on the track by doing this" and he also said "You won't find a new vet now days that knows anything about this stuff" He said "This separates the skin from the bone(I argued that skin doesn't attach to bone and he said I meant hide and I said same thing, but that's how stupid this guy is) and that it would last for 8-13 days and he'd go better and reach better"
Now, onto my questions. I need to know what kind of risks this poses to the horse, what potential problems there are associated with this practice, and what to look for concerning them. I need to know if it's safe to use him, the guy said it was but I don't trust him, he's the only horse there that I can use for riding lessons at the moment. I also want to know more about this practice and if it's such a good thing why a real vet won't use it himself. He said that they use this on draft horses that were Sweeny and that this helped, but I looked up Sweeny in my vet book and I don't see how this could help since Sweeny is muscle atrophy due to nerve damage in the shoulder due to injury (they did mention harness horses), a muscle disease, and bruising of the nerve. I just need any information I can get. I'm supposed to let Heide (the owner who was ****ed about this) know anything I can find out. I've looked though my vet books but don't know what this is even called let alone what it would be under. Thanks
 
That sounds bizarre.

I've studied equine massage, which of course has a lot about stretching out the muscles/fascia around the muscles in areas where they're tight. Not only have I never heard of this, I can't figure out what he was describing. When a horse's muscles are tight, the muscles themselves need to be stretched & loosened, not the skin above the muscles.

Now, I've never heard anything about this; maybe it does even help horses (somehow). I can't imagine how, but there are some bizarre things, counterintuitive, which can help horses. What I would do, though, is call up your vets! Tell them what the farrier did, ask how it will affect the horse.

Also...you (nor the owner of the horse) didn't ask for this; nor did he discuss it with the owner and get approval before doing it. I'm a little hesitant to mention this issue (because this sort of thing could be stretched to apply to me, if an owner were unhappy with me for some reason; even though it's not quite the same)--but that guy was essentially practicing veterinary medicine without a license. It sounds like the guy thought he was being helpful, not malicious. I don't know how strongly you/the owner are feeling about what he did, but--

Whether or not it's helpful, he shouldn't be doing it without owner permission, and he probably shouldn't be doing it at all without approval from your regular vet. Depending on where you are, practicing veterinary medicine without a license is at least a misdemeanor, in some cases a felony. If this guy has done any damage to your (the owner's) horse, there is something that you can do: report him to the state veterinary association.

The first thing I'd do overall, though, is get on the phone with your regular vet. Something has been done to this horse, and it could be harmful--get the vet.
 
what an idiot. Trust your vet. I can think of no benefit that could be derived from such a practice - even changing gaits as 'tightness of the skin' has nothing to do with it - skin is as tight as it needs to be to cover the horse.... otherwise I'd be an Olympic athlete with my droopy bits of skin!! ;)

I do know that vets will inject water under the skin of a severely dehydrated animal that is reluctant to drink (which looks very odd but it saved my cat's life) but this is total nonsense. The most likely result is to introduce bacteria and cause harm than anything else.
 
I'm going to call the vet in the morning. I have to call them to have them come out and give shots and check my mare for pregnancy anyways so I'll ask them about it. I've herd of injecting fluid for dehydration too, but at least that's done steril, he just got this thing out of the back of his truck!
 
I've heard of this in Tennesee Walking Horses, for horses that tear muscles or have other injuries. At least, the guy I heard about doing it said that it would provide more oxygen to the muscles/injuries so they would heal faster and then, once better, would be able to move better. This can be very dangerous and the farrier sounds like a definite doofus.
 
Ringlass

Oxygen is supplied to the muscles via the bloodstream, so injecting air under the skin isn't going to do anything.

Dreamer,

I'd have hit the roof if the farrier did this to my horse, especially without permission. He might have done it to lots of horses but what if your horse is the one horse where he misjudges things and injects air into vein/artery? I can't see where it would have any value whatsoever anyway. My mare was tight through her shoulders a couple of years ago and to solve the problem I had a Bowen therapist treat her, it was her muscles that needed to be relaxed, not her skin (as you already know).

I think if I was in your shoes, I'd be having a word with the vet and passing on this farriers details as I doubt that what he is doing is either legal or ethical.
 
That sounds really dangerous. I know that if air gets injected into the blood stream it can cause an air embolism and can be fatal. In inexperienced hands how does he know that he is not near any veins. I would also be worried about using an unsterile needle and syringe.
 
I have heard about this being done to horses going into auction to make them look better physically (like if they're underweight or under muscled).

How dare he think he can do such things to other people's horses! If you bring a needle near my horse to inject anything, you better have some sort of medical licensing to back it up! :mad:
 
Injecting air

If horses were ment to have air in the bodies in the gas form then god would have put it there.. U ever wonder why they empty the air in vaccination.. because air and blood dont mix.. If i were the owner of the yard i would get the vet out straigt away., I dont no american laws but in England.. that farrier would go down for animal cruelty. I think he is Stupid to even tryt han. I wouldnt use the horse.. it must be quiet uncomfortable to have ** skin stretch so quickly.. massage would have been a better option. I agree with you do not trust this farrier.. hes too arrogant. Sorry to hear about this incident,

*Celica*
PS
BEBE - Oxygen is supplyed to the cells of the body by the blood in the LIQUID form in the gas for it is almost always fatal in the blood stream.
 
reply to all

Here's what I've got so far. Injecting air under the skin is sometimes used in gaited and race horses *cringes at the thought* I managed to get the attention of someone who's VET does this and she agreed that the ferrior shouldn't have touched him. She said the vet injects the air with steril equipment and an oxygen tank. she said it looks barbaric but it's better than the other stuff they do to inhanse the gaits of the horse and I guess I agree with her on that. The place I work specializes in trail horses, not show horses, so all gait adjustment is done by changing the angle of the normally shod foot though triming over time, no chains or wedges or anything like that, and through exercies that teach the horse collection and to use the muscles they need to use (that's where I come in) Heide might have the vet come out and check Scotch, but at least now we know it's not going to be perminant. I'm still ****ed that the one owner was there and did nothing, and I'm still ****ed that the ferrior did this in the first place without telling us what he was doing even when asked. I'm seriously going to make it known to everyone that this guy shouldn't be touching their horses.
 
It's hard because we'er kind of in the middle of no where. We're right on the border of NY and Pa and we're so far out that it's hard to get a good vet let alone a good ferrior. I have one for my own horses that I like he does a good job with my horses and I like the way he handles them and I've never had a problem. However, he does regular horses that walk trot canter and he didn't do well with the gaited horses so they've been switching around for a while trying to find someone who knows what they're doing with the foot angles. I'm actually considering buying one of their horses, Socks, because I've been training him for 2 summers now and have kind of got attached to him (I'm a soft hearted sucker) He was abused so bad that once you were on him if you even reached up to scratch your nose he thought you were going to hit him. Now he does great, still has a few issues but noting that a little time and a good owner can't handle (someone like me :D) but I've got to sit down and talk with my ferrior to see if I can get him to keep his angles right because I don't want to have him falling out of gait (not that I care that much I guess) I mean is there some kind of gaited horse farrier registry or something?
 
http://www.americanfarriers.org/
You can search for farriers here. If you start calling around looking for a gaited horse farrier, then you may find that there's one that the other farriers recommend.

My previous farrier started out doing jumpers & eventers, then got fascinated with Pasos and eventually was doing almost entirely specialized gaited horse farriery. He did a lot of research into the differences in how they're shaped & done, and was apparently very effective (wouldn't know personally, don't know a thing abaited horses).

So it's possible that your "regular horse" farrier could start doing some gaited if he felt so inclined, and were able to put in the time. I know that "spare" time is something farriers don't often get, though, so it may not be soemthing he can manage. Still, if it's really hard to find gaited horse farriers in your area, there may be a demand :) and it might be a lucrative business in the long run.
 
dreamer said:
I train help out at and train for a farm with Rocky Mountain, Kentucky Mountain, and Mountain Pleasure Horses. The get them from Kentucky and sell them in Pa. They have been having trouble with their horses’ gaits and thought they had solved the problem with the farrier they currently are using. He's kind of a cocky know it all "I didn't need no schooling I've been doing this all my life" kind of guy. So naturally (since I went to college for Equine Science) we kind of clash at times. However, I have seen a little bit of improvement in some of the horses he's shod so I kind of just mind my own business, until today. I took one of the horses I was working out on a trail with one of the more quiet horses they own, and I noticed that he was very pacey and was difficult to even get him to walk right, all he wanted to do was pace. So I mentioned it to the farrier when we got back. He went over to him and pulled his skin out and tugged on it and then went in his truck and brought out a needle that was attached to a short hose and a little air thing (I don't know what they're called but they're on blood pressure gages that you use to pump them up with air). I asked him what he was doing and he just said 'watch this' as he stuck the needle under Scotch's skin and proceeded to put a big air bubble under his skin. I asked him again what he was doing and he said again just watch. He took the needle out, put it in another spot on his shoulder, and pumped that up as well. He then moved the air bubble around until it was over Scotch's shoulder. One of the owners of the farm was there and he just watched him do this, the other owner was outraged and very angry, but she wasn't there at the time to stop it and I had no say in the matter. The farrier's explanation was that the skin on his shoulder was too tight and this would allow it to move and he should gait better. He said "I've saved thousands of horses from going to the meat market on the track by doing this" and he also said "You won't find a new vet now days that knows anything about this stuff" He said "This separates the skin from the bone(I argued that skin doesn't attach to bone and he said I meant hide and I said same thing, but that's how stupid this guy is) and that it would last for 8-13 days and he'd go better and reach better"
Now, onto my questions. I need to know what kind of risks this poses to the horse, what potential problems there are associated with this practice, and what to look for concerning them. I need to know if it's safe to use him, the guy said it was but I don't trust him, he's the only horse there that I can use for riding lessons at the moment. I also want to know more about this practice and if it's such a good thing why a real vet won't use it himself. He said that they use this on draft horses that were Sweeny and that this helped, but I looked up Sweeny in my vet book and I don't see how this could help since Sweeny is muscle atrophy due to nerve damage in the shoulder due to injury (they did mention harness horses), a muscle disease, and bruising of the nerve. I just need any information I can get. I'm supposed to let Heide (the owner who was ****ed about this) know anything I can find out. I've looked though my vet books but don't know what this is even called let alone what it would be under. Thanks
Click to expand...
I’ve seen people do this. The use a huge needle, and part of a blood pressure pump to inject air under the dermis. It was at a race track and I was told it was to get more air to the muscles but it also makes horses look more muscular and they get more money. I’ve also seen them inject liquid nitrogen in their legs and inject snake venom. (They don’t show up in drug tests).
 
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