Horse Reluctant to go Forward/Napping

sjp1

sjp1

Well-Known Member
Sep 14, 2009
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Am going to put this under training of rider, because inevitably, it will be me at fault, rather than Tobes because I am the human grown up and he is the horse.

We have moved yards. Initially, Tobes was very forward, not napping or deciding that there were horse eating ferns, stones, drains, dappling shade, but striding out into unknown territory very well ............... as he always does somewhere he is not sure of.

However, six weeks into the move, he now prefers to do the nose to tail business, with another horse fielding all tricky items.

This morning, three of us were meant to ride out. Only two of us did and that was Tobes and I and YO on her daughters young pony, who is equally as 'scared' of all sorts of things. We decided this would be a good learning curve. Tobes for all his faults is very good with traffic, which pony isn't.

We had a lot of napping for the first three quarters of the ride from both of them, and had to urge them forward with both leg and crop.

Tobes led for a lot of the way, but when he wouldn't go forward we were nearly in the hedge.

Now I take on board, he is napping for a reason. Clearly he does not trust me to look after him, so is taking matters into his own hands. I don't have an issue with him if he tries, but it is this refusal to even try that is beginning to get trying. He is not a particularly loving horse either. I went around with Norm a lot yesterday doing saddle fitting in our area. The majority of horses are very loving, even when they have just moved home and don't even know their owners, or visitors, and want to touch you and for you to fuss them. Tobes is not especially like this and I now note the dealers surprised voice of 'he seems to really like you' when I bought him and my YO's assertion that 'he really is very bonded with you'. I do know that he does look for me all the time if I am around, he calls for me the instant he hears my vehicle, if I go off to do something even if other horses are around he is constantly looking for me, but clearly I am not doing something right.

Rambling on, he is very bright, doesn't take long to learn anything, but I am stuck in a place where I realise that he has to accept that when I say go on, he must do that. I had a lesson a couple of weeks ago and instructor said, ask him and if he doesn't, whack him a good couple of times to get him to understand that he NEEDS to do this. Even this is not particularly working. Yes, it is better than it was, and obviously if he is really fearful, I wouldn't consider doing this, I know the difference between being scared and being a bit unsure very clearly.

So what is the answer? I am getting to the point where I really don't know where I am going wrong.

I know he has moved and is uber sensitive about it, that is him, some horses move yards and have enough self assurance to cope with it pretty easily - he doesn't and it takes him a while to settle.
 
Why blame yourself? My share napped. She napped with her owner my revered RI and she napped with me. Nothing to do with me being a bad rider. Deal with it in a way that feels right and safe to you. My RI told me she used to growl at the mare. I guess I felt quite laid back about it. I was never blamed for it and it was something I could handle, thanks partly to NR.
 
When he naps at the moment what does he do? Plant? Spin? Go backwards?

And how do you ride when he's napping?
 
Skib said:
Why blame yourself? My share napped. She napped with her owner my revered RI and she napped with me. Nothing to do with me being a bad rider. Deal with it in a way that feels right and safe to you. My RI told me she used to growl at the mare. I guess I felt quite laid back about it. I was never blamed for it and it was something I could handle, thanks partly to NR.
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Thank you Skib, thats kind. I blame myself because he is mine and I should be able to sort it out really - but am not making an especially good job of it.
 
I think I have commented before that Tobes is very much like my old man Chanter.

He is not a loving, cuddle boy but he calls for me and trusts me.

Like you I know the difference between scared and stubborn/naughty or what ever people want to call it.

It took me 3 months to get Chanter round the track on his own and he threw every trick in the book at me. So I feel you pain.

You know what what will wind him up and what will send him forward. have a practice in the school. even try and bag on the end of a schooling whip.
 
Ale said:
When he naps at the moment what does he do? Plant? Spin? Go backwards?

And how do you ride when he's napping?
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In nappy mode, he plants, I get after him if he is not heart poundingly scared, he either bends himself into the other horse, into the hedge or if I put a lot of pressure on him, he reverses.

If he is properly scared, thats a different matter. If he has time to see what properly scares him, I feel his heart pounding and then I only ask for one step at a time and praise him a lot. Obviously the red setter leaping out from the hedge the other day caused an instant spin with no time to think and galloping away from it. That was OK. I stopped him and we gingerly edged closer.

It is the refusal to even consider that a piece of grass/fern/drain that he has passed several times before that is the issue really.
 
OwnedbyChanter said:
I think I have commented before that Tobes is very much like my old man Chanter.

He is not a loving, cuddle boy but he calls for me and trusts me.

Like you I know the difference between scared and stubborn/naughty or what ever people want to call it.

It took me 3 months to get Chanter round the track on his own and he threw every trick in the book at me. So I feel you pain.

You know what what will wind him up and what will send him forward. have a practice in the school. even try and bag on the end of a schooling whip.
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You are right, I shall just have to keep on really. It is just SOO frustrating sometimes but I am guessing there is no easy way, it is just going to be my will over his - and there are a lot of times I know he has a far stronger will than I do, and annoyingly, not for any particular reason that I can see - grr!!!!
 
If yours looks to the other horse on scary things is that not normal being the same prey animal species. You did say on my thread that its normal for a horse to look to another horse.
Your sitting behind the shoulder, we are pretty much out of sight and so I would think that he would see what the other horse saw and so trust it?
Yes I have been told a horse should look to its rider, but you are in a herd of 4 (technically) the front horse is the leader and the back horse checks what's behind-simplistic version. In the herd hierarchy maybe yours just didn't want to lead that ride or coudnt? If you didn't get off and lead neither did you?

I don't carry a stick it serves me no purpose, it just annoys her and actually causes her to spin, buck etc. I wull use one don't get me wrong just not for napping/fear related issues.
 
Lots of people have mentioned that their horses seem settled directly after a move to a new yard, then go a bit nuts about a month to 6 weeks later, so maybe that's what's going on with Tobes? Just part of the settling in process.
 
newforest said:
If yours looks to the other horse on scary things is that not normal being the same prey animal species. You did say on my thread that its normal for a horse to look to another horse.
Your sitting behind the shoulder, we are pretty much out of sight and so I would think that he would see what the other horse saw and so trust it?
Yes I have been told a horse should look to its rider, but you are in a herd of 4 (technically) the front horse is the leader and the back horse checks what's behind-simplistic version. In the herd hierarchy maybe yours just didn't want to lead that ride or coudnt? If you didn't get off and lead neither did you?

I don't carry a stick it serves me no purpose, it just annoys her and actually causes her to spin, buck etc. I wull use one don't get me wrong just not for napping/fear related issues.
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I don't have an issue with getting off if necessary. However, I actually was not asking for a lot, hacking around a block that he has done several times and additionally with company.

I do understand where you are coming from, but there was nothing life threatening out there, and Tobes is not good at being told what to do. In life, we none of us especially want to do what we are told, but he has gone in front passing far scarier things in the past with no issue.

The top and bottom of it is, I am afraid, that he is not motivated enough to do as he is asked, and my job is to motivate him to do that. Scared - and I mean feeling his heart pounding is perfectly acceptable and I would get off in a heartbeat to help him past. Deciding that something is not quite to his liking and going into stubborn mode, is quite another.

After all, personally, I would prefer not to go to work - however, the consequences are such that I do go to work - and I just have to find the consequence/encouragement for Tobes that will motivate him to do something that is not particularly scarey, but just that he would prefer not to do.
 
squidsin said:
Lots of people have mentioned that their horses seem settled directly after a move to a new yard, then go a bit nuts about a month to 6 weeks later, so maybe that's what's going on with Tobes? Just part of the settling in process.
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It could well be - I think sometimes I expect him to just get on with it, but as a drama queen generally in life, that is not always possible!!!
 
SJP, what you say is Chanter, I had to learn which technique worked with which problem for example. when he was scared hitting him never worked but standing for a minute or two and then asking but more firmly every time did.

When it was just plain naughty I would snack him down his shoulder while yelling at him to walk on.

and the old spin around and send forward I also actually reined back passed some things this is a great one to confuse them.

but the most important was stopping the spin and giving him a smack or hard kick with growl before he had chance to really get going.

It is a hard one and people will give you lots of NH advice about standing waiting, getting off and leading all of it correct but I think with horses like Tobes and Chanter they need to know you are boss and it OK to listen.
 
I agree with newforest I wouldnt be using my stick but he's your horse so up to you. I would either get off, unstick his feet by moving his head side to side and getting him to walk on, then getting back on. Or what worked wonders for my haffy was simply waiting it out. When he planted we just stood there, if he span, turned him back round and just stood there. After a couple of mins would ask forward with legs and voice, like I ment it mind but no whip. Would repeat asking when I felt right, eventually he would get bored and walk on. But this method did take me 2 hours to get down a lane, but then my haffy would nap every few strides when I first got him. Also having foot soilder was very helpful. And groundwork, freeschooling etc. My horse would nap 5/6 times just walking from his stable to the school, or from the washroom to the field. Now he is one of the best hackers on the yard, babysits other horses and loves hacking. We do still have our moments though but only when he is genuinely scared 98% of the time. He very very occasionally spins to try it on at the start of a ride if he is feeling lazy and this I do sometimes give him a tap for because he is 100% not scared and he knows it.
 
Sorry cross posted with everyone.

Is there any way you can make hacking more fun for him so he does want to do it then?
 
Out of interest, is he better or worse on his own? I find Raf is much braver when he's alone - if he's with another horse he's more clingy and if the other horse isn't very confident then Raf soon picks up on the vibes, which is frustrating when I think he should be listening to me, not the other horse.

I would be inclined to go with OBC on this, purely because I've ridden two stubbornly nappy horses and that was what worked for them. Standing, waiting it out and leading past all helped me gain confidence with my old loan horse and made it possible to get round a ride, but eventually it was when he napped into a field of corn and I really got cross with him that we had the big breakthrough and I learned how to get him to go forwards without having to actually get off!

OH's horse is just the same. He tried it on with me, he gave OH a horrible time last year and now a friend has started riding him because her horse is lame. As with his previous episodes he was fine for a few weeks then for no particular reason started his napping business - his tactic is to run backwards at speed, preferably towards a ditch. He's no fool - he knows exactly what he's doing and how to frighten his rider! The way to deal with him is to give him a good loud bollocking, swear words permitted, and a smack. You only need to do it a couple of times. Then be prepared and at the slightest hint of hesitation, or even before if possible, leg on before he gets chance to go into backwards mode.

That's my experience though. It might be completely inappropriate for Tobes, who does sound quite a complex character! And very clever too.
 
He sounds very much like Paddy too even down to the non 'cuddly' type but we still have a bond etc. Firstly I want to say I think that in itself can sometimes get you down when you see all the affectionate horses out there but when he does show me those signs of trust even though they are not as obvious they actually mean a little bit more because he won't just trust or 'cuddle' anyone. When I went away for a month he went to stay at my friends (who he knows) and when I went to see him after I come back he whickered and let me give kisses on his nose, then went off. My friend was then like wow in all the time he's been here he's never whickered to me and definitely wouldn't let me kiss him. I realised then what a bond we do have despite his lack of affection/aloofness so please don't underestimated the trust and bond you do have. It's hard when you see other affectionate horses but my mare whose very affectionate will test my boundaries under saddle far more than Paddy did ridden.

In regard to the napping I'm with OBC and Bodshi on this one totally. It's not like you don't recognise the difference between fear and trying it on so a tap and good 'telling' is required. Becca recently had a big napping episode to some other horses (season related) including rears/back ups etc. If she wanted to back up and she was going to go into something then I let her (depending on it being safe to do so) - it's her fault if she hits the fence (in this case) and I'm sure she would think better of it next time (please don't think I'm being a horrible mummy but she was being silly and choosing to do so) Another thing I use my voice a lot when she's being super silly - Usually growling or telling her to 'get on'. I start off by calmly telling her (voice and leg) and giving when she goes forward but I do not say 'good girly' until we're well away because she tends to take this as meaning 'ooh mums happy now I can start it again' for some unknown reason. On this occasion, nothing was really working until I got so fed up I shouted 'get on' and then virtually screamed 'NOW'. Wow, that NOW really did work and off we went. The power of the voice really does work. Keep riding then until you're away from the situation and going nice and forward then lots of praise. I find if I stop riding too soon then we start a bit of a nap again sometimes.

I don't know much about Tobes but this is just how I deal with mine and each horse is different but I do know It is very very frustrating and can leave you downhearted especially when you know he's being a bit of git but unfortunately perseverance is the key. It does sound like the move may have unsettled him but he still needs to know that it's ok to listen and ok to keep going.

I do think you are being hard on yourself and you shouldn't be blaming yourself at all. Just because he's yours doesn't mean we as owners have every answer, yes we know each of our horses better than other people but we all hit stumbling blocks that we just can't quite get round as easy as another. Believe me I've been there and done most of them and felt like giving up. You may think you're not making a good job of it but I have no doubt you are - there are little dare I call them 'battles' going on with our horses that we slowly 'win' and be that 1 in 10 or 1 in 5, it slowly progresses towards more and more until there no longer are those 'battles'. All the time we are listening and learning from them and every horse requires a certain approach, there is no wrong and right, we're individuals and so are they. Some take longer to come round than others but keep on at it and you'll get there :wink:
 
sjp1 said:
ITobes is not good at being told what to do.
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Yep I have one of these. There is a difference between the fear and worried response over the no sod that one. The body is totally different and like you the fear spin breaks the sound barrier. What I have discovered is getting after her gets me no where. If it was a simple as a PC kick with a decent smack, I would be hacking out. She loses all the lightness because she is arguing with me arguing with her.

I did initially do the rein back that just caused her to rear up and I created another problem.

Mine is work in progress but what is working is rewarding the try, because there is one. My last ride when I got on we had "run out of fuel" it made it into a more lighthearted and I was calm. I had a book in case we needed the AA.

Did you get past the spot? What did work?

Eta you say he isn't cuddly, but all horses have a tickle spot. You may have to hunt for it. My lass can be cuddly but mostly she is quiet and reserved-however she is one big itch bod.
 
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newforest said:
Mine is work in progress but what is working is rewarding the try, because there is one. My last ride when I got on we had "run out of fuel" it made it into a more lighthearted and I was calm. I had a book in case we needed the AA.
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Just thinking about what NF has said here, it's a very good point....I am mainly calm about it all unless they push the boundary too far like that episode above and we end up in a full on argument - I have to try and avoid these with Becca and she is definitely a case of asking rather than telling in normal situations. So just thinking about this SJP, do you think you tense and become really wound up - are you feeding off each other and it makes Tobes worse? I know I've been known to do this in the past where the frustration has fed the nap. Not sure if that makes sense - does anyone else know what I mean?
 
Am very much with ObC on this one! Puzzle was exactly the same when I first bought her, she was used to being ridden by inexperienced children and had learnt how to evade work. We tried all the NH tricks in the book and none of them worked as it wasn't a "trust" issue as such, she wasn't scared of what she was being asked to do/to go, she had just learnt that she didn't always have to. She would lie down in the school rather than do as she was asked!!!

I can be just as stubborn as she is, so we had a few clashes, but we worked through it (sheer firmness and bloodymindedness in some cases!) and once she learnt that I wasn't going to give up, she went like a star!

She is also not a particularly cuddly horse, and was even less so back then, she likes company and we're very much a terrible twosome :wink: but she's not one for hugs/kisses/fussing. She is also a very very dominant mare, I have never known her not to be at the top of the pecking order in any of the herds she's been in.....so she isn't always the best at taking instruction. Now she is a nice forward ride, but she will tell you off if you don't ask her nicely, so she is still very opinionated.

It's not always going to be the way for every horse, and sometimes there are genuine trust issues that need to be dealt with differently, but sometimes grit and determination is the way forward!
 
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