Horses in groups - when is fighting just playfighting?

[Scarlett 001]

Ok. I know lots about cat behaviour and understand my cats' moods. They all mutually groom one another, but occasionally have harmless fights (really just play fights as no one ever gets hurt) just like siblings do - seems pretty healthy as they adore one another and are a bonded herd of cats!

So let's turn to horses. Today I went into the stables as Skeet lost a shoe (other front shoe this time) and he stayed inside until I arrived with easyboot in hand. When I put Skeet in turnout he was a total brat!!! I thought he was the class clown, but I think he is also the class troublemaker!

He waltzed right up the Dale (huge horse) and shoved his face into Dale's and the pair of them had a play fight pretending they might bite the other. No one seemed really angry - more like sibling fighting (and, yes, Skeet was sticking his tongue out!). Skeet then shoved his face into another horse Lenny and there was a tussle/frolic. Then Skeeterling and the gang galloped across the field, followed by silliness and Skeeter even did a quasi-rear. Eventually things calmed down, and Dale went right up to graze near/with Skeetey.

I think Skeeter is having a good time frolicing with the lads - he seems so alive and happy. But Skeet does have a few patches of hair missing on his behind etc. so I think he is getting nipped. I heard Dale was having the same issue. Is there any cause for concern? Someone told me tobasco sauce on his blanket can help stop horses biting Skeeter if things got a bit much - anyone tried this type of thing? Would you be concerned about Skeet getting bitten? They have private turnout at this barn, but group turnout seems so much healthier - that is, unless Skeet is such a brat (!) he gets himself injured.

This is surprising, as I thought I had bought a completely calm horse! He is an angel on the ground with humans and under saddle - but quite a little imp once he gets going in the field! From what people have told me about his past, I think this impishness is new-found and is emerging as his health, confidence and security increase.

 

[galadriel]

*I* can't seem to enjoy myself without getting scraped and scratched up...I can't imagine how my horses typically only lose patches of hair, and seldom even have broken skin. They play much more roughly than I do.

I don't think a few hair patches missing--and even scrapes & cuts--are anything to concern you. More serious injuries might be worth thinking twice about turout arrangements--that might include scrapes with lots of swelling, or lots of bleeding, or generally more painful injuries.

The "I'm going to bite you" game is one that makes me grin a lot. I don't usually see older horses playing that one; perhaps Skeeterling is going through a late childhood. I love it.

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Are you not riding in the Easyboot? That's the original purpose for the thing, remember; it was an "emergency shoe" when you happen to lose one.

If he keeps being this good at pulling shoes, it really might be a good idea to consider barefoot. Despite the barefoot literature, it *is* possible to transition to barefoot without long periods of lameness. If you have access to a knowledgeable barefoot trimmer (who may even be a regular farrier, who also does shoeing, but knows a good barefoot trim) it's possible to keep a horse sound without shoes.

 

[Scarlett 001]

Funny that younger horses usually do the biting game! I just couldn't believe my eyes, as Skeet was like an impish child with a mission to stir up trouble. He entered the field, had a quick roll then immediately quite pointedly marched to Dale and set in with this biting game. Then he made his next attack right away. Then mustered up the gang and led them in a full charge across the field - he seemed to instigate this charge. Until he showed up, everyone had been completely peaceful!

Yes, I was dwelling on this shoe loss thing. Before I make any decision, I would need to do homework. So for the next while, I will continue shoeing and then if this shoe issue persists look into options.

But I did hear that heart bar shoes are easier to pull - the farrier who looked at Skeet's hoof when scratches first appeared said this to me. I did notice that the back part of the hoof is messy still (from before I got him - his hooves were ragged and uneven when I bought him). There was a kind of empty spot at the back between the heart bar and the hoof, that looked like it could make the shoe easy to pull off (especially for nutty horses who frolic like adolescents in the field ). And a clip had fallen off too (the shoe had been on 8 weeks as farrier wanted a bit more growth before we reshoed). Anyway, the farrier said the heart bars are likely not necessary anymore and he could wear normal shoes, as his hoof wall infection is now gone.

 

[KarinUS]

I think even playfights may still include some subtle messages between horses. We've been watching our little herd of 3 and there is so much going on even when it looks like hardly anything is happening to the unsuspecting observer.
It's very, very interesting.
If Skeet was temporarily removed from the herd, playfights may serve several purposes: entertainment, reassurance of herd membership, verification of herd status, etc.

When DJ was still turned out with geldings they would go through several fly masks each season because the boys made it a game to steal them off each others faces. Age didn't matter as much as gender though. With DJ being the only boy nothing bad is happening to our fly masks anymore...

 

[galadriel]

It just occurred to me that you may not know this--

Horses can wear bell boots 24/7 to protect their shoes, and keep them from being pulled off They can get kind of torn up, especially if the horse is prone to pulling his shoes--but bell boots are cheap and easy to replace, much much easier than shoes.

 

[Scarlett 001]

Karin: Funny about the fly masks being pulled off! Good job no one wears one in the field with Skeeter. Skeeter seems to enjoy holding tail flaps of blankets in his teeth to taunt other horses. He did that today too.

Galadriel: Funny that you just mentioned the bell boots as someone I was just talking to on the phone asked whether I needed them for schooling and wondered where the shoes were being pulled - schooling or field. It is in the field. So perhaps I should invest in a pair for the field and write them off as a disposable expense! Thanks for the idea. Do horses pull their shoes off with their hind legs or do they just fall off gradually, or what?

 

[galadriel]

What a kid! Sounds like he's a real trip. Perhaps he's been lonely--you did say that he's been presumed to be low in the pecking order. Did he ever get to play with other horses, much?

It definitely says worlds about your management of him: he is healthier, happier, more energetic.

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Usually I've seen shoes pulled by yanking with one or the other of the hind feet, although I've also seen them just fall off (usually due to extremely poor hoof wall), and horses can use fences & other things to yank them off too. Generally, though, if a horse keeps pulling off his shoes, it's likely to be over-reaching with the hind feet and standing on his own feet.

 

[Scarlett 001]

What a kid! Sounds like he's a real trip.

A *total* trip! I wish you could meet him - I think you'd like him!

Perhaps he's been lonely--you did say that he's been presumed to be low in the pecking order. Did he ever get to play with other horses, much?

Well, at place I bought him from he shared a field with a few geldings. But he was quasi-starved and unenergetic. Not known for playing at all. Then he was sent away for 8 months with tendon injury and was a companion to one younger horse. He became a real handful apparently (he was gaining a bit of weight during this time), which prompted his return to the stables and my purchase. At my first stables he was with one quiet, submissive horse - Skeet was boss and there was no playing that I saw.

I think he was lonely for horsey companionship. And I think he likes the challenge Dale and Lenny present - and the bustling activity of a busy gelding turnout field (he is with 6-7 horses)!

It definitely says worlds about your management of him: he is healthier, happier, more energetic.

Thanks. Except the brattiness might not reflect so well on me!

 

[kedwards]

It sounds like you have this resolved in your mind, but I just wanted to throw my two cents in for whatever they are worth (probably about 2 cents).

I like Bud to go play and have a good time. I'm not disturbed in the least if he comes in with superficial bite marks that amount to little besides missing hair. I have, however, seperated him from a horse he was with when he was not getting enough hay and water because he was chased away. I also seperated him when he was with a big draft mare who was doing more serious damage (he had a big chunk taken out of his lip and came in twice with leg injuries from either being kicked or being chased to the point of tripping).

Others have already mentioned it, but it's not uncommon to use bell boots for a horse with bar shoes. The bar shoes are much more inclined to be pulled off if the horse over-reaches.