Interesting flocking of wintec cair saddle!!

poohsmate

poohsmate

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May 22, 2006
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Gloucestershire. & South Africa.
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Well this is another first..i picked up 3 wintec cair saddles at the weekend to rip the cair out and reflock them..
This was in one of them..someone had decided to put flocking in on top of the cair bags, not just a little bit but lots and lots...in the middle of the panel this was forcing the panel down in the centre so the panel from underneath looked like a banana and was incredibly hard!!!
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I cannot bring myself to think air bags in a saddle are a good idea. I have been asked to take so many out and put plain flock back in
 
Wally said:
I cannot bring myself to think air bags in a saddle are a good idea. I have been asked to take so many out and put plain flock back in
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Absolutely Jo...There is so much that does'nt work with it.. over here it costs 200 pounds more to have a piece of cheap bath sponge heat sealed in a plastic bag and joined in the middle with sellotape (cair) than normal flocking.
and like you i change everyone i get my hands on, even had people buy new wintec/bates with cair and asked me to reflock them..!!!
 
If that's the case, why did the owners of these saddles bother buying these saddles? I own one, and it has given me no problems (ask my horses chiropractor, who can never found anything to massage since I got it as his back is perfect), not every horse suits one, it's very like a pair of shoes, been made to fit a different size..
I currently have a leather VSD sat behind me, wrong for my horse even if it ever gets re-flocked (cost nearly as much as I want for it £200, as it's sort of for sale:redface: if I ever get it up on the classifieds) but would look so good on the right horse, such a shame it's gathering dust..
 
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Dark Storm said:
If that's the case, why did the owners of these saddles bother buying these saddles? I own one, and it has given me no problems (ask my horses chiropractor, who can never found anything to massage since I got it as his back is perfect), not every horse suits one, it's very like a pair of shoes, been made to fit a different size..
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In a lot of tack shops here, you can nonly get Cair in bates saddles!!!!
If you have not had a problem that's great, it's all about horse comfort at the end of the day..
But, i would be quite surprised if both panels were level..even on new ones they are asymetric, and after a couple of months one panel will usually collapse as the foam breaks down and loses it's elasticity...
 
poohsmate said:
In a lot of tack shops here, you can nonly get Cair in bates saddles!!!!
If you have not had a problem that's great, it's all about horse comfort at the end of the day..
But, i would be quite surprised if both panels were level..even on new ones they are asymetric, and after a couple of months one panel will usually collapse as the foam breaks down and loses it's elasticity...
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That's something that surprisingly hasn't happened, it's kept it's shape really well (had that question about our old car, thousands out there, we got the faulty one), In fact thinking about it, I washed it the other day, and there is no physical creases appearing on either side and I've had it two years now, so that's got to be good hasn't it?
 
Dark Storm said:
That's something that surprisingly hasn't happened, it's kept it's shape really well (had that question about our old car, thousands out there, we got the faulty one), In fact thinking about it, I washed it the other day, and there is no physical creases appearing on either side and I've had it two years now, so that's got to be good hasn't it?
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Yes absolutely..it's brilliant :smile:
 
What is Cair and Flair... even after reading the Wintec webby I'm still not sure? :redface: We are currently using a Cair Wintec on Jack who has gone up 3 gullet sizes since he arrived (not really surprising though is it Norm... you saw him?) I'm saving hard for a SC saddle, although Arthur's unexpected arrival has delayed that but it's now at the TOP of my wish list as I think Jack is aroundabout the probably shape he will stay (give or take). I'm obsessed with his back and making sure he's comfortable. He gets rubbed, prodded and the saddle is checked weekly as I've heard so many horror stories about Cair but flocked Wintecs seem to be so rare now!!! So far, Jack isn't even flicking an ear so I'm cautiously hopeful that he's coping....
 
domane said:
What is Cair and Flair... even after reading the Wintec webby I'm still not sure? :redface: We are currently using a Cair Wintec on Jack who has gone up 3 gullet sizes since he arrived (not really surprising though is it Norm... you saw him?) I'm saving hard for a SC saddle, although Arthur's unexpected arrival has delayed that but it's now at the TOP of my wish list as I think Jack is aroundabout the probably shape he will stay (give or take). I'm obsessed with his back and making sure he's comfortable. He gets rubbed, prodded and the saddle is checked weekly as I've heard so many horror stories about Cair but flocked Wintecs seem to be so rare now!!! So far, Jack isn't even flicking an ear so I'm cautiously hopeful that he's coping....
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Hi Jane, hows you and the crowd??

Wintec as far as i'm aware don't make flair panels anymore, and i have heard a rumour over here that the Cair is on it's way out..not sure ohw true it is yet!
Flair is/was basically 4 plastic bags two in each panel wi\hich were filled with air, they had pipes coming out of each bag with a valve on the end, and the idea was that you could adjust the air in each panel to level the saddle up, and take out asymetry in the horse.
The problem with this idea is that if you have different amounts of air in each bag you have different pressure's so when you sit on it you will have different pressure along the horses back.. plus the fact that a lot of the fitters did not know what they were at with it.. i have seen some classic examples of this system which caused no end of problems with horses.

The Cair system is slightly different in that it still has 4 bags but they have foam/air in them.. The advertising was quite clever, they never stated anything other than what it is, but, if you ask a lot of people who have the cair saddles what their perception is of th esaddle most will say that it has foam/air in the panels which can be adjusted with more air etc' should it need it..
Sadly this is not the case as the only air in the bags is what is in there when they are sealed and if you have a leak you have to replace the bag..
What also happens is that if one panel gets soft say, they will use shims on top of the panel to level it up, these seem to come in all shapes and sizes..
When you see the inside it is amazing how cobbled together they, with normally sellotape holding the bags together, the bags also overlap in the middle..and if you run your hand down the panel you will feel a dip/lump halfway down where the overlap is, which incedentally is right under your bum!!
They seem to change the panel arrangement quite often as well and in some the bags just butt up together in the middle which now becomes like a hinge!!
Here are some pics of the two methods. with yellow shims on the one..
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On some i have taken apart the bags have been put in skew...with big creases in them!!
 
What you have said norm is precisely my experience with the wintec flair back in the first few months of getting Joy, my first horse.

I got my ex saddler out to check the fit of Joy's Wintec Vsd and he added flocking to make the banana shaped tree fit and showed that the front panels were asymmetric. At the same time my YO (who said I was wasting my money getting a fitter out as wintecs fitted everything) asked him to check hers and one if her front panels had compressed too.

After 4 weeks of still not being happy (and having moved yards) I had a physio out who said Joy had a chronically stiff back and asked to see the saddle. Needless to say I ditched my saddle fitter and learnt to trust my own judgement where my horse is concerned.
 
domane said:
Oh good grief! Now I've been put RIGHT off my saddle! :frown:
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Nah don't be put off, be aware. If it's right for your horse and even then you're ok but beware of compression both evenly and unevenly as the Cair can go rock hard.

If you've got a good fitter and are having regular checks (mine is done twice a year for seasonal fluctuations but not done by the calendar and can be more often) then you're fine.
 
I've had a Wow, with Flair, for about 7 years now (& a Flair flocked saddle for a year before that) & we've always been really happy with it. Back checks over the years have never thrown up any saddle related problems. I don't doubt that the fitter has a lot to do with it, but that's true of any saddle.
 
I've not found a horse yet that couldn't get on with regular flock (or occasionally foam) panels - I can't see that air is overall a good thing (either system) though obviously some horses like it. If you sit on a bag of air, no matter how low the pressure started, it ends up very high pressure, and high pressure air in a sealed bag BOUNCES.
 
sbloom said:
I've not found a horse yet that couldn't get on with regular flock (or occasionally foam) panels - I can't see that air is overall a good thing (either system) though obviously some horses like it. If you sit on a bag of air, no matter how low the pressure started, it ends up very high pressure, and high pressure air in a sealed bag BOUNCES.
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Agree with big brass knobs on.

Treeless saddles and 3-D films come around in fashion waves......eventually, after the initial novelty everyone settles down and has a flocked, tree'd saddle and admits they enjoy English films with more dialog than special effects! :D :D :D:tongue:
 
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