Is my horse bullying me...?

Lobelia Overhill

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Oct 14, 2004
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I bought my lad five months ago, the first few weeks all was fine and dandy (as it always is with a new horse) then he started "trying it on" doing various things - testing to see what he could get away with. I didn't let him get away with anything, but I didn't resort to whips, spurs, harsher bits etc ... He was in a 3 ring gag which I didn't like, so I changed to a French link snaffle and things started to get better, brakes were fine and his steering and transitions improved enormously and I started to feel we were now getting somewhere.

A couple of weeks ago I started to feel ill - I was taking bad dizzy turns (still waiting to go back to the doctor) and along with the stress at home (I'm caring for my elderly/disabled parents) I was feeling really low and down. And horse has taken advantage of the fact that I'm not on the ball and 'zoning out', he's started biting me in the stable, if I tell him off he strikes at me again, instead of taking a telling he gets worse, so I started ignoring him/pushing his head away, which has reduced the 'attacks' but then he started kicking me! (or at least trying to), and if he's not trying to bite or kick he'll try to squash me against the wall, and he started acting the arse when I'm riding him, gawping at everything, spooking at the slightest noise, tossing his head, swinging his arse, and instead of nice easy transitions it's squeal, leap, buck, charge. I can stop him again no problem, but I don't need the hassle of having to deal with the 'strop' in the first place.

It seriously feels like he's noticed I'm not well and has decided "I'm the boss here" and is asserting his 'authority'.

What's worrying me is this isn't a one off (for me) I have health problems (physical and mental) and there are going to be other times when I'm in a funk and not 100% ...

I'm 99.9% certain this isn't a "pain issue", and it's a behavioural thing - I've noticed that if the YO or YM are around he doesn't put a foot wrong/butter wouldn't melt, and when they're not there, the horns come out and he starts picking on me (kinda like being back at school again!)

Anyone got any suggestions as to how to deal with him 'dominating' the situation when I'm not well?

cheers me dears...
 
It does sound like he's decided you are below him in the heirarchy/politics of your rellationship (/the herd).

If you have the facility I'd recommend using a round pen for "join-up" or doing some "round pen reasoning" with your horse.

Some groundwork in the school would be a good start too. Going through some excercises to make him respect your personal space and move his feet can a be good way of showing a horse that you are in charge.

If the time difference between you taking him on was shorter I'd be asking about any changes to his feed that could alter his personality - but by the sounds of it, it seems he's just picking up perhaps on the change in your mood and body language.
With him beginning to spook more as well it says to me that he's not receiving a strong sense of leadership from you (and therefore becoming uncertain when he's in charge - its comical how most horses would always choose to be their own boss - then panic at everything previously unencountered or unusual in the slightest).

Anyhow I suggest doing Join-up (or some longing), and groundwork excercises to begin with. Some 1 on 1 time with a good instructor would probably help iron out the riding problems.
Just be confident that you are the boss and make steps to establish your relationship as such - be firm with him, but not overly aggressive or severe.

:)
 
Some horses need you to be 'there' for them all of the time. They are quick, sharp, and on the ball the whole time. I have a horse who needs me to concentrate and up my game every time I'm near him. If I only half do stuff, his mind wanders and things don't work as well, he gets distracted, starts anticipating stuff, finds other things he'd prefer to do, etc. if I do focus and be totally there for him, we work great together.

Other horses are more forgiving (not the right word, but you know what I mean) and will fill in the gaps you leave when you're a bit under the weather, tired, not concentrating, etc.

But if you have times when you know in the future you will physically & mentally not be 100%, I'd would think about whether this horse will suit you down the road.

The only way out when you're not well, is to be able to still act as if you are well... this is (very) difficult obviously. When you're well you sound like you get on fine. Alternatively, when you're not well, leave him out in a field for while?
 
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I do feel for you and understand where you are coming from. I am always gutted at the threads that say 'my horse really looks after me and knows when Im unwell etc etc' because Rosie will take even the most slightest advantage whenever she can (from as subtle as putting a foot towards me when Im not paying attention all the way up to plain old trying chuck me off!) and if i am particularly down or upset - I dont ride because it just finishes me off having to fight with her too (but we are getting past that!)

That said, this happens much more rarely and to much less degree now that we have worked on our relationship via natural horsemanship and lots of groundwork - its a great place to establish rapport and more importantly respect whilst being able to keep your self safe.

There are a million threads in the NH section and loads of good advice and books etc available or loads on You tube - have a look. Once you have extasblished leadership and some manners, it wont take much to assert yourself even if you arent feeling great - a carrot stick doesnt take much effort to point but we both know what it means!

Good luck and dont get upset about it - they are just doing what comes natural to them and what they feel they need to do to be safe - herd dynamics are all part of life for a horse and its not personal. You just have to make sure you are at the top of the chain, and stay there! Its about respect not aggression.
 
I have physicl problems and use crutches or walking stick from time to time. My pony will help me when I am 'lame' but not if I am ill or upset, then he takes advantage, pushes and shoves, barges, bites, never kicks though.

When riding, if my knees are sore in rising trot, he just wont trot still I sit and stop moaning, the minute I rise again he stops again. He wont canter off if I am like this either and always puts his head down for me to dismount over his neck. If however I am feeling OK, we have a hell of a ride.

When leading when 'me lame', he pulls me up through mud holding on to his rug, walks very slowly one step at a time with me.

If I am upset or get flu, he sees that as different, and takes over leadership till I am better. Which to him means now I can bite and barge.

Similarly if ill at home, one cat wont come near me, but the other two sit on the bed for days with me.

Horses personalities differ, just like us and other animals in the way they view illness. We now have an understanding, if I am just hurting from bones and muscles I will ride, sit on stable floor, everything and he will behave and help. If I am ill or upset, I just give him his food, pick feet and leave. It suits us both but it comes from having him a long time so we know what is in each others heads all the time.

I give him space when he is not 100% too, just a little TLC as he doesnt like it and just sit on floor for a bit then leave him.

Hopefully you will get more used to each other and work it out.
 
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Horses, like all animals, can read emotions if not our minds, and rather than seeing your horse as "taking advantage", try to see him as a mirror of how you're feeling. I know this from one of my dogs. I had a lot of anger in me from my recent break-up of a long-term (13 year) relationship, and had to move house and split up the dog pack. My older dog took charge then and I didn't see it happening, but later when I tried to apply Cesar Millan's therapy to sort this out, my dog got worse. Why? I was still angry! Once I realised this and started to do something to address that, my dog is much more secure in his delegated place in my pack and I am much happier.

I know that's about dogs more than horses, but I think the theory is the same. I know we can't help being ill, but perhaps when we are, we should do less with our animals and curtail the routine until we're feeling better. That way they can't take advantage because we're giving them nothing to try and take.
 
Horses, like all animals, can read emotions if not our minds, and rather than seeing your horse as "taking advantage", try to see him as a mirror of how you're feeling.

I second that.

I won't go into my personal problems here, but homeopathy, Bowen, a friend (the Bowen therapist, funnily enough) and a diary have all helped me immensely. :)
 
Thanks for the replies!

If you have the facility I'd recommend using a round pen for "join-up" or doing some "round pen reasoning" with your horse. Some groundwork in the school would be a good start too. Going through some exercises to make him respect your personal space and move his feet can a be good way of showing a horse that you are in charge.

There's an indoor school which I can use, I was thinking of pretending my sciatica was bothering me and I can't ride, so I'll just do some loose schooling, and hopefully they'll let me ... I would like to try join up with him and see how it goes, when he's not being a sod he's a lovely affectionate horse!

If the time difference between you taking him on was shorter I'd be asking about any changes to his feed that could alter his personality - but by the sounds of it, it seems he's just picking up perhaps on the change in your mood and body language.

Not sure what he was on, but they did 'reduce' his feed to a cool mix rather than the competition one he was on ...

With him beginning to spook more as well it says to me that he's not receiving a strong sense of leadership from you (and therefore becoming uncertain when he's in charge - its comical how most horses would always choose to be their own boss - then panic at everything previously unencountered or unusual in the slightest).

LOL I know what you mean, it's all "I'm in charge. OMG there's a letter A on the wall, run for your life!!!" Thing is because I've got physical problems with my back/pelvis and therefore my legs, I find it hard to push on strongly enough - he was previously ridden by a man, so he's used to having someone stronger than me riding him ...

Just be confident that you are the boss and make steps to establish your relationship as such - be firm with him, but not overly aggressive or severe.

Will try that, thanks very much :)



Some horses need you to be 'there' for them all of the time. They are quick, sharp, and on the ball the whole time. I have a horse who needs me to concentrate and up my game every time I'm near him. If I only half do stuff, his mind wanders and things don't work as well, he gets distracted, starts anticipating stuff, finds other things he'd prefer to do, etc. if I do focus and be totally there for him, we work great together.

That sounds exactly like my lad, he used to be a competition horse and I think he's expecting me to ride him forwards, fast and strongly, whereas I actually ride slowly and would be looking for more collection...


But if you have times when you know in the future you will physically & mentally not be 100%, I'd would think about whether this horse will suit you down the road.

This is the thing that's worrying me, do I call it quits now, or hold on and see if we can't iron things out?

Alternatively, when you're not well, leave him out in a field for while?

I was going to say this to the YM, I was wondering if maybe he could be turned out every morning and left out - I can bring him in myself when [if] I go to the yard and that way even if I'm not up to riding he's at least had that time out of the stable ... I think they're a bit pushed for grazing space at the moment tho', and the ground's been like a bog...



I do feel for you and understand where you are coming from. I am always gutted at the threads that say 'my horse really looks after me and knows when Im unwell etc etc' because Rosie will take even the most slightest advantage whenever she can (from as subtle as putting a foot towards me when Im not paying attention all the way up to plain old trying chuck me off!) and if i am particularly down or upset - I dont ride because it just finishes me off having to fight with her too (but we are getting past that!)

Relieved to hear it's not just me who has to suffer!!



Horses personalities differ, just like us and other animals in the way they view illness. We now have an understanding, if I am just hurting from bones and muscles I will ride, sit on stable floor, everything and he will behave and help. If I am ill or upset, I just give him his food, pick feet and leave. It suits us both but it comes from having him a long time so we know what is in each others heads all the time.

I have tried just grooming him, washing his tail, whatever on a day when I'm not great, but he starts attacking me in the stable ...

I'm wondering if just walking away would have the 'right' effect, as in I won't entertain his behaviour if he's going to be like that. We're not allowed to feed treats, so I can't reward good behaviour other than patting him and telling him he's been a good boy ...

One bright spark is that I've been 'training' him that when I ask for halt I'll say "whoa" so he associates the word with halting (just in case he throws a wobbler and I can't get a hold of his head to pull him up) the other day was a prime example, he went to bite at something on his neck and got his martingale in his mouth, so when he went to straighten his neck, panic stations!!! I yelped "whoa!" and he stood still so that I could sort him out :D

I'll definitely try doing groundwork and some join up and see how we get on...

cheers :)
 
I think it is worth persevering.. but this very much depends on the feelings you have for him, as neg feelings and feelings of dread will come across and he'll know it.. If you love him and have bonded with him then the finer things can take years to iron out.. I know, took me nearly two years before I gained my lads respect. He loves his mummy now :)
My friends horse is the gentlest lovely beast you could wish to own.. all accept when he has had to stay overnight in his stable.. then in the morning he bites, is bad tempered and a really inpatient boy.. Some horses hate being in, perhaps it would be better to change livery yards if that is possible and have a lovely nice tempered horse that respects you.
I would also take a crop in the stable with you, let him know you have it.. he won't respect your NO comand, but he'll sure know a smack won't be pleasant.
 
I think it was Pat Parelli who said that in order to try and understand your horse imagine that you are a woman alone walking down a dark alley late at night.You would feel apprehensive very high energy and ready to run at the slightest hint of danger.But imagine if you had someone with you that you were confident in, who was calm and assertive and who had handled( what were in your opinion) your issues and problems in the past.With the one you trusted who was together and cool in troubles you could be relaxed-maybe even in a dark alley?-but if you were with another who got scared easily,ran at the sign of trouble or at the least got more fearful than you, you would probably panic and want to get away giving little thought to the weaker person only knowing you don't want to be linked to them. Don't know if this makes sense to you but this is how I think horses feel.Noone can really be sure but they seem to be calm and relaxed when they know they have a leader present.They are always assessing us and though they may not always want to be the leader I think if they feel we don't measure up they feel their safety depends on it.In order for them to feel we can take care of things(they may still spook or act out occaisionally)we need to be focused on what we are doing.Leave everything behind when you enter the stables-I know easier said than done!Focus on what you are doing woith your horse.Most importantly don't be scared to correct him.A few timely corrections make a big impression.Be fair consistent and calm when dealing with him.My horse hates loudness and yelling for example and it took some time to figure this out.Takes time- we are 2 years in now and really just becoming bonded.Not every ones method works for every horse.You may have to try a bit of this and a bit of that.But although you have to be in fairly good physical shape to ride and handle horses I must say that mental fitness is very important.Horses are basically a mirror to who they spend the most time with.Try and look at your horse time as your time to relax, your "ME" time and just try to enjoy it.Sorry so long and hopefully some made sense.
 
I think it was Pat Parelli who said that in order to try and understand your horse imagine that you are a woman alone walking down a dark alley late at night.You would feel apprehensive very high energy and ready to run at the slightest hint of danger.But imagine if you had someone with you that you were confident in, who was calm and assertive and who had handled( what were in your opinion) your issues and problems in the past.With the one you trusted who was together and cool in troubles you could be relaxed-maybe even in a dark alley?-but if you were with another who got scared easily,ran at the sign of trouble or at the least got more fearful than you, you would probably panic and want to get away giving little thought to the weaker person only knowing you don't want to be linked to them. Don't know if this makes sense to you but this is how I think horses feel.Noone can really be sure but they seem to be calm and relaxed when they know they have a leader present.They are always assessing us and though they may not always want to be the leader I think if they feel we don't measure up they feel their safety depends on it.In order for them to feel we can take care of things(they may still spook or act out occaisionally)we need to be focused on what we are doing.Leave everything behind when you enter the stables-I know easier said than done!Focus on what you are doing woith your horse.Most importantly don't be scared to correct him.A few timely corrections make a big impression.Be fair consistent and calm when dealing with him.My horse hates loudness and yelling for example and it took some time to figure this out.Takes time- we are 2 years in now and really just becoming bonded.Not every ones method works for every horse.You may have to try a bit of this and a bit of that.But although you have to be in fairly good physical shape to ride and handle horses I must say that mental fitness is very important.Horses are basically a mirror to who they spend the most time with.Try and look at your horse time as your time to relax, your "ME" time and just try to enjoy it.Sorry so long and hopefully some made sense.


I think that made a lot of sense and I love the analogy.. I shall be quoting that one to myself often..
 
It does sound like he's decided you are below him in the heirarchy/politics of your rellationship (/the herd).

If you have the facility I'd recommend using a round pen for "join-up" or doing some "round pen reasoning" with your horse.

Some groundwork in the school would be a good start too. Going through some excercises to make him respect your personal space and move his feet can a be good way of showing a horse that you are in charge.

If the time difference between you taking him on was shorter I'd be asking about any changes to his feed that could alter his personality - but by the sounds of it, it seems he's just picking up perhaps on the change in your mood and body language.
With him beginning to spook more as well it says to me that he's not receiving a strong sense of leadership from you (and therefore becoming uncertain when he's in charge - its comical how most horses would always choose to be their own boss - then panic at everything previously unencountered or unusual in the slightest).

Anyhow I suggest doing Join-up (or some longing), and groundwork excercises to begin with. Some 1 on 1 time with a good instructor would probably help iron out the riding problems.
Just be confident that you are the boss and make steps to establish your relationship as such - be firm with him.

:)

Some horses need you to be 'there' for them all of the time. They are quick, sharp, and on the ball the whole time. I have a horse who needs me to concentrate and up my game every time I'm near him. If I only half do stuff, his mind wanders and things don't work as well, he gets distracted, starts anticipating stuff, finds other things he'd prefer to do, etc. if I do focus and be totally there for him, we work great together.

Other horses are more forgiving (not the right word, but you know what I mean) and will fill in the gaps you leave when you're a bit under the weather, tired, not concentrating, etc.

But if you have times when you know in the future you will physically & mentally not be 100%, I'd would think about whether this horse will suit you down the road.

The only way out when you're not well, is to be able to still act as if you are well... this is (very) difficult obviously. When you're well you sound like you get on fine. Alternatively, when you're not well, leave him out in a field for while?

Ditto both of these! You cannot expect your horse to focus, or be calm, if you are not. Whenever you find your mind wandering to what might be round the next corner, what you're having for tea, or an engagement you have the enxt day, just refocus your mind back to your horse and over time, it should become a habit. When you are living in the present, you cannot be anxious.

I think it was Pat Parelli who said that in order to try and understand your horse imagine that you are a woman alone walking down a dark alley late at night.You would feel apprehensive very high energy and ready to run at the slightest hint of danger.But imagine if you had someone with you that you were confident in, who was calm and assertive and who had handled( what were in your opinion) your issues and problems in the past.With the one you trusted who was together and cool in troubles you could be relaxed-maybe even in a dark alley?-but if you were with another who got scared easily,ran at the sign of trouble or at the least got more fearful than you, you would probably panic and want to get away giving little thought to the weaker person only knowing you don't want to be linked to them. Don't know if this makes sense to you but this is how I think horses feel.Noone can really be sure but they seem to be calm and relaxed when they know they have a leader present.They are always assessing us and though they may not always want to be the leader I think if they feel we don't measure up they feel their safety depends on it.In order for them to feel we can take care of things(they may still spook or act out occaisionally)we need to be focused on what we are doing.Leave everything behind when you enter the stables-I know easier said than done!Focus on what you are doing woith your horse.Most importantly don't be scared to correct him.A few timely corrections make a big impression.Be fair consistent and calm when dealing with him.My horse hates loudness and yelling for example and it took some time to figure this out.Takes time- we are 2 years in now and really just becoming bonded.Not every ones method works for every horse.You may have to try a bit of this and a bit of that.But although you have to be in fairly good physical shape to ride and handle horses I must say that mental fitness is very important.Horses are basically a mirror to who they spend the most time with.Try and look at your horse time as your time to relax, your "ME" time and just try to enjoy it.Sorry so long and hopefully some made sense.

Exactly - imagine if that person you "trusted" then turned around and tried to shout & physically bully you into submissing to them, to make them feel like "boss". When riders become emotional, aggressive & highly energised, horses lose faith & trust in them as the rider is just proving that they are a poor leader. Imagine this same scenario as an instinctive, reactive & naturally cautious animal who feels that they are in a dangerous environment; then you can understand how horses become nappy, flighty, fidgety & bargey. It is because they feel they have to look out for themselves and are then blind to the rider: when the rider is no longer trusted, they are no longer the horse's leader. And whatever isn't a horse's leader is always a potential danger to the horse. And yet so often these horses are labelled as being "rude" or "dominant" ... which can lead to disasterous attitudes & methods. If you ever, ever find yourself feeling tempted to use physical or forceful means to control or "assert" yourself over your horse, then you know that you have lost your way and need to refocus on what you want and exactly how best you are going to get there. A rider has to earn trust, respect & leadership by consistetly proving themselves worthy to their horse. If a horse does not trust, respect or view the rider as being their leader, then that does not make them deserving of punishment, but the very opposite!

Good luck :)

x
 
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hi, there are some very good posts here and many i would heed from,i do feel for you and have respect for what you are doing to help your family,you are correct he is picking up on your body language and that is saying i feel unsure and down,unfortunatly horses pick up massively on body language as this is how they communicate with all species.you must try take a different view- your already a good kind person and somone i would like to know-this is your goal-if you know your horses is not in pain thats ok.
ive spent the last 12 months figureing what was wrong with my horse and his was a diet related and has myositis which isnt common, he cant use the starch in his body and gets azoutria symptoms.
he doesnt respect you which is hard to take when all you want is to be with him and happy-bloody pain in the neck when his trying to knock you when you feel down(that doesnt appear to me as a nice horse really) i bust up my foot and was limping most horses can detect that and be extra good. chin up though you can do it.
 
I bought my lad five months ago, the first few weeks all was fine and dandy (as it always is with a new horse) then he started "trying it on" doing various things - testing to see what he could get away with. I didn't let him get away with anything, but I didn't resort to whips, spurs, harsher bits etc ... He was in a 3 ring gag which I didn't like, so I changed to a French link snaffle and things started to get better, brakes were fine and his steering and transitions improved enormously and I started to feel we were now getting somewhere.

A couple of weeks ago I started to feel ill - I was taking bad dizzy turns (still waiting to go back to the doctor) and along with the stress at home (I'm caring for my elderly/disabled parents) I was feeling really low and down. And horse has taken advantage of the fact that I'm not on the ball and 'zoning out', he's started biting me in the stable, if I tell him off he strikes at me again, instead of taking a telling he gets worse, so I started ignoring him/pushing his head away, which has reduced the 'attacks' but then he started kicking me! (or at least trying to), and if he's not trying to bite or kick he'll try to squash me against the wall, and he started acting the arse when I'm riding him, gawping at everything, spooking at the slightest noise, tossing his head, swinging his arse, and instead of nice easy transitions it's squeal, leap, buck, charge. I can stop him again no problem, but I don't need the hassle of having to deal with the 'strop' in the first place.

It seriously feels like he's noticed I'm not well and has decided "I'm the boss here" and is asserting his 'authority'.

What's worrying me is this isn't a one off (for me) I have health problems (physical and mental) and there are going to be other times when I'm in a funk and not 100% ...

I'm 99.9% certain this isn't a "pain issue", and it's a behavioural thing horse being bullied by its companion- I've noticed that if the YO or YM are around he doesn't put a foot wrong/butter wouldn't melt, and when they're not there, the horns come out and he starts picking on me (kinda like being back at school again!)

Anyone got any suggestions as to how to deal with him 'dominating' the situation when I'm not well?

cheers me dears...
Whenever a horse is being ridden near Luca (my gelding), he pins his ears and charges at the horse. This only happens when Luca is not being ridden, just when he's on the paddock.

For example, about a week ago, my sis was riding one of the geldings on a paddock right next to the paddock that Luca was grazing on. Whenever the gelding would trot past, Luca would pin his ears back and charge at the fence. I was scared that he was going to jump it! :shock:

Luca does it when: a horse is being ridden on the same paddock as him.
When a horse is being ridden on a paddock next to him.

Luca doesn't do it: when the ridden horse is near and Luca is tied up. When he is too far away to charge properly. When he's being ridden as well.

When Luca is being ridden while another horse is being ridden, he only pins his ears a little when it comes past, but it depends on the horse. He's fine with his best buddy (an older gelding called Syd) but with Fleet (TB gelding) he gets grouchy. But I can easily control Luca when that happens.

So what I'm asking is:
-why is Luca doing this?
-what can I do to stop it?

Thanks in advance!
 
Whenever a horse is being ridden near Luca (my gelding), he pins his ears and charges at the horse. This only happens when Luca is not being ridden, just when he's on the paddock.

For example, about a week ago, my sis was riding one of the geldings on a paddock right next to the paddock that Luca was grazing on. Whenever the gelding would trot past, Luca would pin his ears back and charge at the fence. I was scared that he was going to jump it! :shock:

Luca does it when: a horse is being ridden on the same paddock as him.
When a horse is being ridden on a paddock next to him.

Luca doesn't do it: when the ridden horse is near and Luca is tied up. When he is too far away to charge properly. When he's being ridden as well.

When Luca is being ridden while another horse is being ridden, he only pins his ears a little when it comes past, but it depends on the horse. He's fine with his best buddy (an older gelding called Syd) but with Fleet (TB gelding) he gets grouchy. But I can easily control Luca when that happens.

So what I'm asking is:
-why is Luca doing this?
-what can I do to stop it?

Thanks in advance!
Welcome to the forum, no idea where you find these old outdated threads from.
I would start your own.
 
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Its not outdated really. If people are looking for answers to there problem horses and these threads match the similar situation they experience i guess they just join and post on the thread. They probably dont look to see how old the thread is or consider that after all this time the original posters may no longer be active on the site. They are probably more excited to see that there is another person that has gone or going through the issue they are currently experiencing with there horse.

Im certainly happy to add something to an old thread if a new poster needs help.
I have to say Ive seen several people reply recently with 'this is an old thread, youll be better to start a new'. Im afraid i think this can be unhelpful and often the poster never does start a new thread. So in a way we discourage people from wanting to stay on the forum when theyve only just joined.

I agree with not replying to some new members who post up on old threads especially if you can see they are complete time wasters and headcases. They dont even warrant a response. We can do without them. Theres definitely been a few of those.

Dont want to start a war. Just saying this is how ive seen it on a few of the old threads that have been raised. Maybe to keep some of these new members we need to be a little more helpful if the old thread warrants being resurrected.
 
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I did welcome them and suggest starting their own thread šŸ™‚
We will get to know more about them and their horse, and not confuse people who may reply to the op.
 
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