Join up Questions

[KP nut]

I've never really been interested in join-up because I'm not sure about the 'be the alpha' concept. But I've read a lot about it, and I've seen it demonstrated. And once when I was loaning a bolshy 3yo and had to get quite 'apha-ish' with him to stp him barging me and chasing me away from food, the result of me driving him away from me, was that after that he followed me around like a giant labrador

So today I decided to give it a go, but I can't really assess how it went... Charlie has been VERY spooky because he keeps getting static electricity shocks from him sweet itch rug. The shocks get him on his toes and then even when the rug is off, he startles at everything, including me. He's also been very full of himself under saddle with all this new spring grass! SO today I thought join-up might help with the spookiness if he could build some trust in me. The process sort of went according to script: he circled me, he flicked an ear towards me, his head dropped, he chewed and when I stopped circling him he turned to face me. But he did not approach me. I waited several minues with a passive body language, but he never approached me. So eventually I approached him and he backed away. So I started the circling again. This was repeated 5 times. Finally he took some steps towards me. And then he followed me for a few turns but he did not appear trusting. He still seemed wary of me. More so, in fact than before the join up exercise. When I stopped, he stopped but when I tried to pet him he shifted his weight away (without moving his feet). It was as if he had learnt not to move away from me (or I'd start circling him again) but he showed no desire to be with me. When I turned him out, he moved away from me swiftly. Normally he stays near me, nuzzling hopefully for treats when I take his head collar off. This time he walked off as soon as he could get away. I feel like I've broken not strengthened trust.

Any thoughts?

 

[popularfurball]

First of all... Sorry I had to laugh - Silver gets shocks from her SI rug too - but she always just stands and watches me yelping in surprise - I had decided that they couldnt feel them - now I know she just enjoys luaghing in my face too much to let it upset her!!!

And secondly... I would exaggerate your passive behaviour by rounding shoulders and crouching to the floor.

How did you send him away? I have to be careful with madam to not directly challenge near her head - she becomes head shy when I change direction so I have to be careful making gestures towards her face. They only send each other away in the same way by threatening each other, and this is mostly teeth the bums affairs so try to keep driving him forwards from behind rather than scaring at him - like you are lunging him.

 

[KP nut]

I sent him away by standing where I would stand to lunge - ie on an angle & slightly behind his quarters and pointing a lunge whip at the space behind him. Never anywhere near his head. And I did avoid eye contact, round my shoulders and crouch when he was stood still facing me. He took off in canter as soon as I started circling him which again is unusual for him. Maybe he was just too freaked by the electric shocks and it was a bad idea to try anything new with him? But I thought the idea of join-up was to build trust and so provide reassurance to the horse, not get him even more stressed. Is join-up something you need to do more than once. Should I try again? Or should I leave it?

 

[Francis Burton]

I've never really been interested in join-up because I'm not sure about the 'be the alpha' concept.

Maybe that's not how it works... I'm not sure that even Monty himself explains it in quite those terms.

But I've read a lot about it, and I've seen it demonstrated. And once when I was loaning a bolshy 3yo and had to get quite 'apha-ish' with him to stp him barging me and chasing me away from food, the result of me driving him away from me, was that after that he followed me around like a giant labrador

Maybe he learned something useful from your 'alpha-ish' behaviour that didn't have anything to do with you being (seen as) alpha.

So today I decided to give it a go, but I can't really assess how it went... Charlie has been VERY spooky because he keeps getting static electricity shocks from him sweet itch rug. The shocks get him on his toes and then even when the rug is off, he startles at everything, including me. He's also been very full of himself under saddle with all this new spring grass! SO today I thought join-up might help with the spookiness if he could build some trust in me. The process sort of went according to script: he circled me, he flicked an ear towards me, his head dropped, he chewed and when I stopped circling him he turned to face me. But he did not approach me. I waited several minues with a passive body language, but he never approached me. So eventually I approached him and he backed away. So I started the circling again. This was repeated 5 times. Finally he took some steps towards me. And then he followed me for a few turns but he did not appear trusting. He still seemed wary of me. More so, in fact than before the join up exercise. When I stopped, he stopped but when I tried to pet him he shifted his weight away (without moving his feet). It was as if he had learnt not to move away from me (or I'd start circling him again) but he showed no desire to be with me. When I turned him out, he moved away from me swiftly. Normally he stays near me, nuzzling hopefully for treats when I take his head collar off. This time he walked off as soon as he could get away. I feel like I've broken not strengthened trust.

Oh dear, not the result you were hoping for. I would be interested to hear explanations as to what may have gone wrong.

 

[KP nut]

Francis, do you know how Monty does explain it then? In his 'The Man Who Listens To Horses he seems to be be very anthropomorphic "horse is now saying, please can I come in, I'm ready to listen to you now' etc. The lip chewing is 'submission' to the herd leader (the trainer). But that's a very old book!

 

[popularfurball]

I had also thought it was about establishing rank in the partnership. I refrainede from commenting further as i have used it for very specific issues on a different pony. Silver was a nervous pony, but diplayed anxiety by being aggressive. Sometimes she just gets a bit big for her boots and i use it then to politlfy remind her she needs to come down a peg or two and respect me and my space again. I also use it when she won't catch but came about accidentaly and i use it more on the basis that she has to make a decision about how she wants to behave. If she runs away i'll send her away, if she doesn't come to me when i invite her she gets sent away. Etc etc. That way she has to make the choice about whether she runs forever or comes to me. She learns much better when she feels she has made the decision. That said i've not used it on a timid non bolshy horse so i'm not to sure how it would work. I would worry that what has happened.

Might sound strange but if he has one horse he is close too if he has a choice then have a look at that horses behaviour and copy that. We pick friends based on interests but also similar morals in treatin others. Silver,s closest friend was a mare who was the herd leader but passivlex dominant, not aggressive nr confrontational. She would peck sil if necessary but silver had respect for her so didn't need it. That helped me understand we could never be a partnership the whole time i smacked her and shouted at her "naughtyness" as those aren't the characteristics she looks s in someone to trust. Strange yes but thats me!

 

[Francis Burton]

Francis, do you know how Monty does explain it then? In his 'The Man Who Listens To Horses he seems to be be very anthropomorphic "horse is now saying, please can I come in, I'm ready to listen to you now' etc. The lip chewing is 'submission' to the herd leader (the trainer). But that's a very old book!

Yes, that is the roughly the form of words used, though he uses the term leader rather than alpha or dominant (which may or may not be the same ). From his web page (http://www.montyroberts.com/ju_about.html):

"Working in a round pen, one begins Join-Up® by making large movements and noise as a predator would and begins driving the horse to run away. She then gives the horse the option to flee or Join-Up®. Through body language, the trainer will ask, "Will you pay me the respect due to a herd leader and join and follow me?" The horse will respond with predictable herd behavior: by locking an ear on her, then by licking and chewing and dropping his head in a display of trust. The exchange concludes with the trainer adopting passive body language, turning her back on the horse and without eye contact, invites him to come close. Join-Up occurs when the animal willingly chooses to be with the human and walks toward her accepting her leadership and protection. This process of communication through behavior and body language and mutual concern and respect, can be a valuable tool to strengthen all other work with horses."

and then a little further on:

"Traditional methods aim to teach the horse to ‘DO AS I SAY’ and involve the use of pain and intimidation, but Monty focuses on communion with the horse, rather than domination."

The stated meaning of "licking and chewing" seems to have evolved over the years, maybe even come full circle. In Monty Roberts' own words (http://www.montyroberts.com/news_e_newsletter_071807.htm):

"I list as the third gesture "licking and chewing." In doing so, the horse communicates that he is an herbivore and is eating. If he is eating, he cannot be afraid of the situation he is in. In fact, this can be considered a sort of smoke screen. The horse is testing the waters, so to speak, prepared to flee if necessary. I believe that this gesture is a later version of one expressed by foals when they snap their jaws open and shut at the sight of a strange horse, or have a frightening experience. I believe this gesture means that while the horse is eating he cannot be afraid. I think he is saying, 'We have a guard horse on our herds and when a predator is present we must stop eating. We must get our heads high and get ready for the run or we die.'"

This isn't exactly 'submission', is it? It seems a little more complicated than that.

 

[KP nut]

Thanks Francis, that's interesting. But really doesnt seem to explain my observatons today. Like I said, Charlie followed the 'script'- he locked an ear on me, dropped his head and chewed. But he did not seem to be trusting or choosing to be with me. If I had to put words in his mind they would be 'what have I done wrong? What are you doing'. When he stood to face me his head was up again, and he looked very wary. He did take a few steps towards me in the end, though he stopped short of me and appeared nervous when I approached him. So maybe Roberts would suggest I just needed to do it for longer till he chose to trust me.

As for 'communication' rather than 'do as I say', well I was making him 'flee', so that was 'do as I say'. And fear is just as unpleasant for the horse as a smack on the bum. Probably more so. I've been left feeling VERY uncomfortable with this whole process and what happened today. I think my bolshy 3yo was a much more suitable horse for being driven off as he was the aggressor and I was standing up to him and saying 'nope I'M in charge'. And he responded immediately to it and became a much more amenable and friendly horse. But scaring a scared horse? I'm feeling very depressed and guilty now....

 

[KP nut]

Might sound strange but if he has one horse he is close too if he has a choice then have a look at that horses behaviour and copy that.

That's a really interesting thought. He's picked on a bit in the field. His pal is my lovely shettie, Heidi who is only 2. She is totally passive and always avoids trouble and will be friends with anyone! Charlie & Heidi both just avoid trouble at all costs. So no wonder he wanted to get away from me. He doesn't follow the alphas in the pack, he stays out of their way. Oh dear, this was not a very successful experiement. I don't think I'll do it again. Still we live and learn....

 

[popularfurball]

That's a really interesting thought. He's picked on a bit in the field. His pal is my lovely shettie, Heidi who is only 2. She is totally passive and always avoids trouble and will be friends with anyone! Charlie & Heidi both just avoid trouble at all costs. So no wonder he wanted to get away from me. He doesn't follow the alphas in the pack, he stays out of their way. Oh dear, this was not a very successful experiement. I don't think I'll do it again. Still we live and learn....

Yep thats what I figure too

I found that some days it works well for us, and we will go months without doing "join up". Then that one occasion it will work wonders. She will just have a mega stroppy day once in a while and at that point where she barges me or wont be caught she needs a reminder, but now, she acts in the same bewildered and confused state as you are describing. But she also leaves in a peaceful non conflict environment now.

I think this is also why she wont trot on the lunge, she flashes the whites of her eyes in panic and confusion she either thinks oh right, shes not doing owt, Ill stop and eat and then I change my body language and its "OH ****! Shes going to do something... but shes my mum she doesnt hurt me... but I have to run incase she does arghhhh!"

I think your right that it works very well with bolshy horses, but like both of us have found in different circumstances it isnt necessarily the answer.

I now focus more on asking and choice (pressure and release of sorts), so if she is fearful I reassess how to approach it. I try and tackle the issue indirectly rather than confrontationally - doesnt always work but she works so much better if she feels she made the choice. So something scary on the ground, I would ask her to walk on, if she ignores I ask again, if she ignores I will circle and reapproach it or ask for lateral movement... at some point she has to think about whether she continues to move, whether she runs past it or whether she puts her nose down and has a look. If she runs past I turn her around and go back until she will look at the problem item. Obv not feasible with traffic but you see what I mean.

Its the same with picking her feet up - we do it on a lunge, she has a choice to move away or stand. She moves and moves but at some point comes to the decision that it would be easier to stand and kick me. She then decides that actually maybe it would be better to pick up the foot nicely. If it was naughtyness I would bring her in line, but as its fear I wont raise a voice or increase force, just change the approach to the problem until she finds a way she is happy to explore the issue. I will continue to ask her in a passively assertive way but give her time to work out the situation for herself.

Perhaps you could do lots of tarps and umbrealla work etc in hand? I also find a lot of in hand voice work helps us a lot. Lots of woahs, stands walk ons and trot - once on board use them too and have found particularily the woah helps when she is jogging. It just seems to remind her its me thats there on her back and she calms down

 

[Yann]

I think it's important to realise that the result you got wasn't actually that untypical, I've seen a few join ups at demos, and it really isn't that uncommon for Monty to have to go to the horse and take a pull on the headcollar in order for the horse to begin to follow him. Don't underestimate the psychological impact of being in a round pen either. On the IH five day course you're taught techniques for getting a 'stuck' horse to come off the pen wall and follow you by moving in arcs and making intermittent eye contact, so your experience is all part of the general picture.

Whether the experience has actually been beneficial for you and your horse in this instance is another matter. If they're nervous and don't value our company greatly then you risk reinforcing their scepticism by sending them away and asking them to show signs of submission. I'm not convinced by the herd mythology that goes with join up, and I've never seen it happening in my field. Although it might be that there's a little bit of cross species generalisation going on I think it's mostly straightforward pressure and release work, with the horse learning that sticking with the handler and following their direction results in peace and quiet. You can get the same result by doing halter work, and plenty of ordinary horses who have never been near a round pen will happily follow thier handler around loose in an enclosed space.

Rio doesn't like being sent away, I once tentatively tried join up in a round pen with her and the results were hilarious, with me having to work twice as hard as her to keep her moving. Needless to say I soon gave up

 

[fth]

with some horses when doing join up, when the horse show the signs of the ear and the head dropping, you will see Monty actually turn and walk away from the horse -- so the horse does not end up facing you, but as you turn with the horse and your shoulder turns, the horse is drawn to you and comes in a few steps.

if the horse stops (and remember many horses having been taught to lunge will not be sure about approaching the human) then walking in small arcs until you are at his shoulder and inviting him to follow works well

Cathy