join up your experiences please

Barcie

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May 19, 2005
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I had an RA out to help me with my horse I felt that we had both developed a lack of trust in one another. He was being awkward to catch turning his bum towards me often giving alittle kick back and he was being bargy. The RA decided to do join up.

After the session he was very relaxed. I went out into his field shortly after releasing him and he came up and stood behind me waiting for me. However a few days after he got into the fenced off part of the field which I open up gradually for grazing. He was again turning his bum on me and not wanting to be caught.

Since then when I go to catch him he walks away from me and although I adopt a passive stance will take a bit more time for him to let me come to him.

Just wondered other NR's experiences after join up and how it has gone. I am continuing with the ground excersises (not as often as I like in the dark) he is good with those and when he fidgets which is remarkably less since join up calmly put him back to his position.
 

Torny

Horsin' Around
Continuity is the key, :)

Although, I am intrigued.....why is he walking away from you? Why is he turning his bum and warning you with a raised leg?

Join up is good, but, has the real problem been addressed? :eek:

Having done some Equine Behavioural studies, I would say, from what you have written, that there is something that has not been addressed.
My suggestion.... would be to try some Clicking training, which uses Positive Re-enforcement.. You can have wonderful results using this method and you can mingle it in with join up if you desire to. Remember, no ONE way suits every horse/pony.

For every time he comes to you, or steps towards you, click+treat. He will quickly catch on to this and it gives him a positive feeling about coming to you. Make sure he does not snatch the food from you. As time goes by, wean out the treats.

Remember, it is always a positive thing for your horse when they get a treat for doing...NOTHING ;)

Hope this helps!
Regards
Lx
 

NoviceNic

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May 7, 2003
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I have recently had a lesson with a NH trainer. The session was quite an eye opener. Captain tantrumed but this is to be expected as he is wasnt ready to give up being herd leader.:eek: In the 2 weeks since my lesson Captain has tested me twice. I have passed the test and have gone through some scary moments which made my knees knock. But all in all I am very pleased with my results. I am practising everyday twice a day when I take him out and bring him from his field. I agree with Torny continuity is the key and practise,practise, practise..:)
 

valiant

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Sep 15, 2006
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As far as I understand it, join up is only the start..after that comes consistent implentatation and insistence on good ground manners.

When my horse came, he also did not want to be caught. By rewarding (not bribing) with bites of apples and slices of carrot, every positive step, he's become a treat to catch. The difference between bribing and rewarding is the timing and that the reward only gets given after the horse has done something you want. Bribery is when we give the carrot in anticipation of the act.

When he turns his bum towards you, maybe you must do more groundwork on yielding the hind and then insist on that in the field as well, not only when doing he groundwork:) . That is very disrepsectful when they turn their hinds on you.
 
Y

Yann

Guest
I've not done join up with my own horses (no suitable facilities or need to) but I did a few on the IH 5 day course recently. From what you've posted it sounds like it was the right thing to do in this instance and has had a positive effect on your horse's attitude and demeanor. However it's not a magic wand, it will help things, and it sounds like it has done, but unless you can keep going in the right fashion yourself and keep giving all the right messages it's possible that he will backslide.

For a start if he turns his bum on you then you need to send him away a bit, it's not acceptable behaviour and you need to keep making this clear to him. Don't worry if this gets him going away from you too much, I'd personally carry on moving him with the assertive body language until he stops and looks at you, then step away and go soft as a reward. If he moves away as you're approaching him politely again, go assertive, and repeat. He should very quickly get the message. I'd personally couple this with a nice food reward when you catch him too, and make sure catching isn't always for work, or even to come out of the field sometimes :) Make sure you apply the groundwork principles the whole time you're with him too, not just when you're specifically schooling.

In the first instance I'd give the RA a ring and see what they advise, I'm sure they'll be only too happy to give you some follow up advice. Who did you have out?
 

Wally

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Apr 16, 2000
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I shall rue the day, I know. But when I am offered a backside and a raised foot, I get the first boot in!

Not to be reccomended, one day I will get double barrels, I know, but when they do that I see red, HOW DARE THEY speak to me, alpha female, like that!

However, it has worked for me......so far, and they maybe think twice about offering me a back end and a raised foot.

As for join up, I see the ideas, and the science behind it.

I would say that all the horses we ride and work with regularly are joined up, they want to be with us, they are happy in our company and willing to do what we ask.

Occasionally, maybe once a year, somebody over steps tha mark and is bargy or rude or just testing the boundaries, then, and only then are they sent away, to contemplate thier 'haviour, once they appologise they are allowed back to the safety of the herd.

When I am working with truly unhandled ponies of the hill I never send them away, I "join up" (not in the MR way) gradually and over a long time. You might be able to get on and ride a well handled TB youngster, who has been with people all his life, in 20 mins. You cannot rush a wild hill pony. You need, deep, thorough foundations.
 
Y

Yann

Guest
Wally, one of the things that is made very clear by the exponents of join up is that it should never be used on a wild or unhandled horse :)
 

Wally

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Wally, one of the things that is made very clear by the exponents of join up is that it should never be used on a wild or unhandled horse

This is one of the things that crops up here time and again. Folk seem to think that by chasing a wild horse around you can tame it and get on it's back in 20 mins.
 

Wally

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Apr 16, 2000
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Blue eyed horses are also blind, white feet are also weak, you can't feed a pony out of a white bucket without training. Horses are born with Ali Baba feet, they don't need worming, Haylage wears down their teeth, ....I could give you a bit more mis-information that is gospel if you like, There's plenty more where that came from! :D :D :D
 

teabiscuit

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Oct 21, 2005
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it's part of the shownmanship thing that NH feeds off-get a wild pony, do join up, 5 min later you have a perfectly calm biddable creature because of the great "..." fill in big name NH guru.

all maigic and mystical-you wanna be part of the club? give us yer dosh!

can't do it yourself? must be your fault.
 

Wally

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Apr 16, 2000
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Teabiscuit, do I detect a small amount of cynicism??

When one of MR associates came here to do join up on a pony, they gave up after 2 hours of acheiving nothing! :D :D :D
 
Y

Yann

Guest
Too much cynicism methinks ;) If an equestrian earthworm like me can have some modest but genuine success with methods promoted by big name gurus for the price of a book and a couple of cheap local clinics it can't be all bad :)

To come back to the original thread, the aim of the RA will have been as much to work with the owner and and try to give them the necessary tools to continue by themselves as the horse.
 
Y

Yann

Guest
When one of MR associates came here to do join up on a pony, they gave up after 2 hours of acheiving nothing!

Who were they? Because nobody should persist more than 5 or 10 minutes with join up if it's not working, Monty himself certainly doesn't.
 

teabiscuit

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Oct 21, 2005
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Yann, Wally, i posted that after reading about the clinto anderson demos, i was steaming mad about what i read, and yes, it makes me extremely cynical

not everyone who takes this stuff up has your basic approach to horses, or your intelligent application/interpretation of what they see and read.


some of NH, i fear, stinks.
 
Y

Yann

Guest
I fear you are right - I've not read the thread concerned (perhaps for the best...) but when I looked up his homepage I was somewhat dismayed to see nothing but wall to wall adverts and zilch about his approach or methods. And I do find the hard sell dismal, Monty Demos included. Savvy socks anyone?
 

Crystal Fire

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Yes please Wally, tell us which associate it was. Just to be sure they actually are an associate. I've just come away from lurking on a thread where somebody confused Richard Maxwell with Gary Witheford... :rolleyes:
 

Peace

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Occasionally, maybe once a year, somebody over steps tha mark and is bargy or rude or just testing the boundaries, then, and only then are they sent away, to contemplate thier 'haviour, once they appologise they are allowed back to the safety of the herd.

This is the only way join up has ever made any sense to me. As I understand it, a horse is "sent away" in the real world of horses for doing something to upset the herd's applecart. So I've never understood why one would send away a horse while s/he is just standing there doing nothing in particular.:confused:

I'm also not too sure about "sending away" in a round pen - where the horse really can't go that far away. Seems to defeat the purpose. If I want a horse to go away, it's because he's done something to make me think we'll both be better off with a good bit of distance between the two of us. :D
 
Y

Yann

Guest
What's the name of the lady who has Akal Tekes and was his ghost writer?

No idea! Didn't know he even had a ghost writer, never seen one credited in his books. I presume it was a few years ago?

So I've never understood why one would send away a horse while s/he is just standing there doing nothing in particular.

You wouldn't? If you're going to send away or use join up it should be for a specific reason, otherwise you could possibly construe it as a form of bullying. Done correctly, in a pen or elsewhere my understanding is that join up works on two levels. Firstly you're moving the horse's feet and controlling its speed and direction which has an impact on its attitude to you. Secondly, the echo of herd discipline reinforces this, and the fact you have behaved in a potentially predator like manner and there has then been a pleasant outcome can promote a bond of trust with the handler. It is a specific tool with a specific purpose, and is normally only used to establish a relationship, or help re establish it on the right footing, as with the OP's horse. You can achieve exactly the same results by a slightly longer route doing normal groundwork :)
 
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