Joining up

[nuttymanxmare]

Ok

Im thinking of trying joining up with my mare and just wondered whats the best way to go about it and where can I get the info/books on it?.

Id like to give it a try as she is a dominent mare and has no respect for me. (twice she has run off down the yard and wouldnt be caught)

George

 

[Unbridled]

Honestly, I would book at least one lesson on Join-up with a qualified NH trainer. My horse was very dominant and very angry about the switch in herd position (she didn't want me to be leader!), and I was incredibly happy to have a trainer telling me what to do during her "tantrums." After a single lesson you'll probably be able to carry on by yourself, so it won't cost a lot...but it will be invaluable in the long run. Join-up can be done incorrectly and if it is this will actually damage rather than strengthen your relationship with you horse.

That being said, Join-up when done correctly works wonders! My mare is not even like the same horse anymore. She now respects me as her leader and is happy to see me coming. I never have to "catch" her anymore because when she sees me she runs to the gate and follows me (without a lead) across the pasture. I used join-up over a course of about 3 weeks combined with the Parelli Partnership level games (now that she is "joined-up" we just use Parelli) and it has honestly made her a much happier, more confident animal. Like today when we were in the arena and someone turned on the sprinklers (v. loud sprinklers which sprayed water right on Sugar's hindquarters) she startled, but the second I said "It's okay, girl." in a soothing tone she calmed down. She would not have done that a few months ago, but now she knows I am her leader and she can trust me to take care of her. If I tell her things are okay she knows they are, because she respects me and trusts my judgement.

If you want to read some books on join-up I would check out either Monty Roberts or Kelly Marks. I've never read either of them because I've been using an instructor's help, but I heard those are two of the best. Good luck with your horse. Trust me, I've been there and I know it's hard (Sugar made me cry a few times during her "naughty" phase) but when she turned around she did a complete 180, so all the work has definitely been worth it.

 

[mandagirl26]

I watched others and learned by internet directions, I don't know if it's exactly considered join up.. but let me explain.

Mister would try to walk over me if I wanted him to stand, or he would paw the ground when standing for any length of time, he was also very mouthy and did start to grab at me on occasion. His former owner would hand feed him.. I don't do that at all. I either give treat on the ground or in his grain bucket. Plus working with him in the roundpen has greatly improved his manners.

(If you don't have a roundpen, using a lunge line and long whip is fine too..just don't hurt them with the whip, you want light contact)
I took him in the roundpen, without his halter and with a long rope rolled up tossed it at him landing on or near his hindquarters, once he moved, I kept following him around my eyes focusing on his rear to get forward motion..you want a slow trot or easy canter, a few times around and I attempted to stop him by looking him in the eye , stopping my movement behind him, and laying the rope down behind me, with a whoa... when they stop if they don't look at you and either turn away butt end out, send them around again with the rope, they are showing disrespect...
A few times around you may see your horse starting to lick or stick his tongue out and that's a submission.. "hey can i be your buddy now? I'll listen"
You want to drop the rope and ask him to whoa and look at you with some kissy noises. Once he looks at you see if he will come to you, if he hesitates pick the rope up and send him away again for a few rounds and ask him to whoa and look at you, let that be that until another time. You always want to end on a positive feel.
Keep working on that until he turns in and comes to you, you can kissy noise and turn your shoulder in to get him to come to you. Then you can work on him turning inside and sending him opposite direction around the ring, you making him change direction, really puts you in the leader position.
I also want to work with Mister to give to pressure. You can do that with anything, your finger, hand, bridle, halter reins...You do that by giving pressure until the opposite leg moves or the head moves then release, it's a reward and you will see your horse more responsive to touching.

That's as far as I've gotten with Mister, and now he trusts me enough not to balk when riding and to trust me in the bad deep dark woods.
There's definitely a lot of methods out there. I bought Gawani Pony Boy VCR Tapes "Horse follow closely" from Ebay and they are super informative and I like his manner. Another great source is www.roundpenmagic.com
Good luck and let me know how you do if you can!

 

[Bay Mare]

Agree with Appy_Luv - don't try it yourself unless you know what you're doing. It's not just about 'doing' it's about observing and recognising the various, sometimes very discreet, signals that your horse gives out.

If you look at the Intelligent Horsemanship site they have a list of RAs (Recommended Associates) who will come out and work with you and your horse. They are quite cheap in the grand scheme of things and they are definitely worth the money. They can't, however, teach you how to Join Up though they will let you observe while they do it.

I've used an RA before with great success, they're not just there to sort out problems, they will also work with you on groundwork, long lining etc.

To get an idea of Join Up and the various exercises used you could also get a copy of Kelly Marks' books, Perfect Partners and Perfect Manners, which are excellent.

 

[Francis Burton]

Appy_Luv wrote:
"My horse was very dominant and very angry about the switch in herd position (she didn't want me to be leader!)"

Maybe this is a silly question, but why couldn't you be leader and in charge without being fussed about dominance? "Herd position" is only an issue if you insist on incorporating yourself into a social dominance hierarchy by playing dominance games. I guess it depends how much you really want your horse to see and treat you like another horse!

This is a problem I see with "join up", and why it may be less successful (and not recommended) with more dominant individuals, such as some stallions, who react, shall we say, less than ideally against the "dominance game" aspect of the procedure. I believe this is why Monty Roberts will not do join-up with a stallion at demos. However, I think join-up works in other ways too which may be beneficial. Establishing who is "dominant" is not one of them, in my opinion.

 

[Yann]

To get an idea of Join Up and the various exercises used you could also get a copy of Kelly Marks' books, Perfect Partners and Perfect Manners, which are excellent.

You could also go and watch Monty Roberts in person, as he's currently touring, he invariably does a join up with each horse he works with, and there's nothing like seeing it done properly. However I'd personally be very cautious about just trying it out myself with a particualarly dominant horse in case you make things worse, as Francis points out. There are other ways to tackle the situation and an RA might be a good starting point, though they don't teach how to do join up as part of the service they offer.

 

[Unbridled]

Appy_Luv wrote:
"My horse was very dominant and very angry about the switch in herd position (she didn't want me to be leader!)"

Maybe this is a silly question, but why couldn't you be leader and in charge without being fussed about dominance? "Herd position" is only an issue if you insist on incorporating yourself into a social dominance hierarchy by playing dominance games. I guess it depends how much you really want your horse to see and treat you like another horse!

This is a problem I see with "join up", and why it may be less successful (and not recommended) with more dominant individuals, such as some stallions, who react, shall we say, less than ideally against the "dominance game" aspect of the procedure. I believe this is why Monty Roberts will not do join-up with a stallion at demos. However, I think join-up works in other ways too which may be beneficial. Establishing who is "dominant" is not one of them, in my opinion.

??

I never said I was "playing a dominance game" or trying to be dominant over her! When I said "herd position" I meant the change in my relationship with her (me becoming the leader) not her relationship with other horses.

I said my horse is a dominant horse--in other words in the hierachy of the herd she was always on top. Or if not she always fought until she could get on top. The problem I had with her was that she was showing me very subtle signs of disrespect which I failed to notice--until one day it all erupted in a huge bucking fit because she decided to play leader and not leave the arena when she didn't want to leave it. She did not respect me and so did not trust me to make the decisions in our relationship, but it took me a while to catch on to this because there were a lot of things she was willing to allow me to do. It was when we got to the point where she did not want to allow me to do something that we had a problem.

She is also a horse that was abused in her previous homes and she had a lot of trust issues which stemmed from that. Once she understood that I am a capable leader (which join-up contributed in showing her) then she understood she could trust my decisions. Join-up is not simply a "game of dominance" it is a game of trust. If you don't want to accept that then fine, but I know from personal experience that it works very well.

 

[Renaissance]

Join up

There is soooo much more to building a partnership with your horse than just 'Join up'. I went to see Monty Roberts live last week (I have also seen him live a few years ago) and I was not impressed at all. There were no indepth explanations into horse behaviour in comparison to Pat Parelli. Take a look at his material and you will find a system that covers both handling and ridden work.

Last night I rode my mare bridleless & bareback (using no equipment at all) and carried out transitions and turns, including all movements required at Elementary dressage, with the greatest of ease. Nothing beats that feeling!! The communication between horse and human is the key and I thank Pat Parelli for enabling me to experience this.

 

[Unbridled]

There is soooo much more to building a partnership with your horse than just 'Join up'. I went to see Monty Roberts live last week (I have also seen him live a few years ago) and I was not impressed at all. There were no indepth explanations into horse behaviour in comparison to Pat Parelli. Take a look at his material and you will find a system that covers both handling and ridden work.

Last night I rode my mare bridleless & bareback (using no equipment at all) and carried out transitions and turns, including all movements required at Elementary dressage, with the greatest of ease. Nothing beats that feeling!! The communication between horse and human is the key and I thank Pat Parelli for enabling me to experience this.

I agree. For me join-up was a starting point. I think it was necessary with Sugar because of all the aforementioned issues, but join-up alone would probably not have gotten us so far. The Parelli games helped to build on the foundation join-up set. Once Sugar "joined up" we continued with Parelli to reinforce our bond. I am just perfecting the first level at the moment, but someday I hope to be where you are Renaissance. Bravo on such good work.

 

[Renaissance]

Level 1 and beyond

Appy_luv

When you just start out it seems such a long journey, it really isn't though. I have learnt so much on this journey and I would say the best way to learn is to get involved with the communities. If you ever get stuck and want advice the help is out there if you look for it, ie, communities, chat rooms, etc so although it is a home study pack don't stop when you get stuck!! Good luck and I hope that you achieve a partnership with your horse that I am enjoying with mine.

 

[Francis Burton]

AppyLuv - Thanks for being patient and explaining what you meant. When you wrote "herd position" I assumed you were talking about dominance rather than leadership, because you'd said she was dominant earlier in the same sentence. Also, when people use the phrase "herd position" they are usually referring to dominance. That's what misled me.

I think your point about noticing/missing subtle signs is so important. With horses, the sooner you see a problem coming (or even the potential for a problem!) the easier it is to head it off with subtle responses, or avoid it altogether - so you never need to "get tough" or angry or become overtly confrontational. Easier said than done, but something to aim for all the same!

"Join-up is not simply a "game of dominance" it is a game of trust."

Right, and that's why I said dominance was an aspect - one whose negative consequences may be more or less easy to avoid, depending on the horse. There is more to join-up, I believe. For a start, it teaches the horse that being with and attending to the person is more rewarding.

However, I really don't think real and lasting leadership or trust can be inculcated in one short lesson. They have to be earned over a period of time. In the end it's the horse who decides whether you are a leader worth following and the extent to which you can be trusted. For many who use join-up, it is just the start, as Renaissance says. And some take a different route to the same goal, without doing join-up at all.

 

[Unbridled]

However, I really don't think real and lasting leadership or trust can be inculcated in one short lesson. They have to be earned over a period of time. In the end it's the horse who decides whether you are a leader worth following and the extent to which you can be trusted. For many who use join-up, it is just the start, as Renaissance says. And some take a different route to the same goal, without doing join-up at all.

Then we agree. I was suggesting that if nuttymanxmare is pressed for cash then she at least book one lesson in join-up with a qualified instructor before trying it alone. But I certainly don't think one session would cure the problems with the horse. It took me three weeks of join-up with Sugar before she actually gave in and accepted me as her leader. And that was working three times a week with a qualified NH instructor guiding me. I stopped doing join-up after that but continued on with Parelli. Like Renaissance said, Parelli helps teach you to read a horse, to not only communicate with him but to allow him to communicate with you as well. I am ashamed at all the things Sugar was trying to "tell" me and I was ignoring. Now that I am actually "listening" to her she is much better equipped to listen to me.

Would the Parelli have worked alone if I hadn't used join-up? Possibly, although I doubt I would have seen results so quickly. The join-up allowed her to work through all her resentments in a safe way until she was finally ready to tune in and work with me. It helped to make her more accepting of the Parelli games, I think. However, my horse was evaluated by an expert before we ever attempted any kind of NH with her. For myself I would never have considered combining the two as they both supposedly achieve the same end anyway. But all horses are different and require different things....which is why I think anyone with a problem horse should at least get an instructor out one time so they can tell you if the method you've chosen is appropriate or not.

 

[Yann]

It took me three weeks of join-up with Sugar before she actually gave in

This doesn't sound right to me, if the horse didn't respond to after a couple of attempts then my impression would have been that other techniques might have been more appropriate. Horses that have been lunged to death for example are meant to be very difficult to do a text book join up with.

 

[Unbridled]

This doesn't sound right to me, if the horse didn't respond to after a couple of attempts then my impression would have been that other techniques might have been more appropriate. Horses that have been lunged to death for example are meant to be very difficult to do a text book join up with.

Well, she would come to me each time during that period, but my instructor said she wasn't actually "joining up" for two reasons. One was that she was not displaying any chewing behavior to indicate she understood what it was all about. The other was that she would not "come in all the way". She would come within about twelve feet of me and stop, but she would not look at me. When the instructor said she was "joined up" she went four laps around the arena and then as soon as I asked her in she came right up to me, facing me, and licking and chewing. This is what I meant by it took three weeks. She wasn't just running around in circles until then...she did come in to me, but she wasn't exactly accepting the fact I was leader. But each time we did it she always came a bit closer in a bit less time until eventually she gave in completely. Sorry if I was unclear.

 

[Yann]

I think I'm with you, I presume she wasn't hooking on to you fully and following up. At what stage where you asking her to come in, was she giving all the signs? How were you asking her in? I must add that this isn't a subject I know a vast amount about, but as I suggested I've not heard of the technique being used in such a sustained way before.

 

[FRED]

But all horses are different and require different things....which is why I think anyone with a problem horse should at least get an instructor out one time so they can tell you if the method you've chosen is appropriate or not.[/QUOTE]

To be honest a problem takes months or more of carefull and on going plans to move happily forward,its better still if you can have a good trainer pressent, a lot more than once.
Endless hours of little with a sweated up tired horse are far better sacrificed with minutes of quality that lead onto better times.
Licking and chewing behaviour I get from the horses at the stables when I greet them hello.....ooopss
I will be going to see Monty again soon in Staffs

 

[Yann]

See you there Fred!

 

[FRED]

Anyone else going ?, Yann I may have some brilliant news re Dakota