Might a home made horse be better for me??

[Monty]

Let me give you a hypothetical situation, and can you tell me your thoughts, please??

Older horse (not old)...that is, between five and ten years old. Checks all the boxes for my particular needs...you know, confidence, comfy, mounting block and all that.....broken and backed at usual age, and extensively hacked with children and adults. This scenario keeps popping up. Selling because mum bought for herself, and keeps finding that taxiing her kids to pony shows is taking up too much time and she doesn't get to ride in the end, so ned is being neglected.

The only thing missing is correct schooling for dressage. No idea what an outline is, but naturally tracks up well and good paces. Every fibre in your body is saying yes, yes, yes! I'm comfy, I'm happy, I'm safe. And then bloomin common sense jumps in and says, "but you want this horse for dressage...." My knowledge of horse education is not good enough to know whether 'this horse' (if it exists) can do that, at his/her age. I have no doubt I could do a lot of the schooling, but I need someone to tell me what to do.....but above that.....WHETHER it can be done or not. And I need to hear from someone who's done it to....and how hard was it....though I do appreciate that a lot of that will depend upon the individual horse.

I believe I've missed some really nice natured horses beacause I've passed them off because of their lack of dressage schooling. And if it's going to be hard to find a comfy horse, (due to it being necessary to do sitting trot) then might I possibly be better off 'making my own' horse, despite the fact that this was not the original plan?? Especially as I'm probably now too late for this year's dressage, and if I get there at all, will be on an RDA horse, an I'm not probably allocated one anyway, because I don't go to a group.

For example, one I recently passed on was a 15hh TBX mare aged 8. Don't know what the X is, but suspect is something a little chunky, looking at the space between the front legs, yet she retains TB features generally to look at.We know I do well on TB types, but I'd prefer to add a little more weight carrying capapcity into the picture, though I'm not huge, nor do I ride heavy. I didn't try her, but found myself going back to her picture all the time...thinking....I WONDER if she'd do dressage for me.

Any thoughts on the matter anyone. Thought too, if I got such a horse, I'd have broken to harness.....sort of anyway, but not with the intention of having them pull anything behind, necessarily. Get someone who can ride as well, to do it, and have them teach voice commands and then use them under saddle. Tis just a myriad of thoughts going on in my head just now??
Thoughts please??

 

[KarinUS]

To be honest I think you guys are lucky to have so many 'specialist horses' available! Your riding school horses are trained to behave like riding school horses; Your dressage horses are trained to do dressage?
Out here we learn to ride on off-track TBs that happened to be good natured enough to go along with it and had a couple of years off the track and naturally most people just take a regular horse, take lessons on it and then try themselves at dressage.
When I bought DJ as my first horse he had been off the track for a year. He had some basic under saddle training but mostly he had lessons as a driving horse. So here I come - beginner and completely unbalanced myself, trying to learn to ride on a horse that's not a whole lot more balanced himself. It was a struggle fro both of us. In retrospect I feel bad for how much we expected him to know when really he was still learning himself.
But we did learn and we did become quite successful at local dressage shows -largely due to his naturally beautiful gaits and willing temperament.
After owning him for a couple of years I had a chance to ride a real schoolmaster. Wow. What a difference. Immediately so much easier for the rider.
I have no idea how that translates to your situation. Your diability may make a difference. Your showing environment may make a huge difference as well. Around here people rarely start out with 'dressage horses'. It is assumed that dressage is just a way to properly ride and so it's a work in progress - a goal to work towards to - rather than a specialty sort of thing.

Good luck! I am sure this will be the year for you to find your partner.

 

[LMS]

If this horse checks absolutly every box on your wish list except for the dressage experience look at him & check out if he could have the potential for it. Meaning his conformation, is he willing to do what you ask, his way of moving etc.

Yeah it takes a bit of time to train him to do it, but think of his potential. Is it worth the time investment for now & near future. You may benefit from this as teaching a horse to do things will show how good your aids are and will refine them.

Heck if I can teach my barrel racer to be a lovely dressage horse (low levels), you can do this!

Any pictures of this loverly equine?

 

[Palomino Mare]

Hi,

i think that as it is important to you to have a comfortable, safe ride then this is the key feature to look at. the little mare you mentioned already had the paces but didnt know an outline. as long as a horse doesnt reject you when you try to school it then i think it would be a very valuable experience. why not spend your first year with the new horse getting ready, schooling and teaching it what you know so that when the next dressage season comes you will be even prouder as you have done it together - it wasn't someone else's influence.

does this help??

amz x

 

[Lgd]

Yes it is do-able and you would have the advantage that the horse learns to dressage to your aids, something you would have to do with any new horse, dressage trained or not.

The pony my niece and nephew had was ex-BSJA and had been abused to the point she would no longer jump in the ring (not by the folk we bought her from, I hasten to add). Didn't go on the bit but safe as houses. Niece was very novicey and pony was on working livery. Despite that she managed to train her to dressage, qualified trailblazers finals at prelim and novice and was working her at elementary/medium level when she outgrew her. Pony then went on to 'train' two more kids on loan before I sold her on. Pony was rising 13yo when she came to us and obliged despite all the mental garbage she came with.

 

[Ptaty70]

Hi Monty
Can I just ask what has made you think about an untried horse? is it because you can't find the right horse or because you don't think that horse exists? (not one for sale this century anyway).

You have always said that you needed to feel safe and comfortable. Once you find one that gives you this and as long as the horse displays willingness to please and is just 'green' (from a dressage point of view), you should maybe look seriously at that horse as a contender. It will just take you longer to get where you want to be but as PM said, you can grow together. Personality fits are so very important and if you've potentially found that horse, coupled with steady gaits and a kind, willing temperament, then go for it.

What does your RI think about you bringing on an untried horse? Can they go with you to see the best contender (you will have a better idea once you have evaluated why you are looking at untried horses and have thought about the consequences/advantages of this). Maybe they could try the horse for you, to see if the willingness is there and then give you an evaluation.

I would be very interested to hear which conclusion you come to, keep us up to date!

(I reckon the horse in Guildford was not a go-er then..?)

 

[RustyMary]

Monty
Did you disappear that other thread you started this on? I can't find it now!

 

[Monty]

Horse in Guildford had big pain issues I fear, as well as having been imported without a passport. Deginitely no go. Went to see another on Friday...perfect in every way.....but again pain issues. Honestly....I'm not joking or being neurotic, but the tail was swishing throughout riding, regardless of who was riding, neck upright and stiff,nose out, and ha a dickens of a job getting him to lower his head enough even for me to get my leg over the front and dismount. I couldn't even get him into trot. If he wasn't in in pain (which I'm certain he was) then he's certainly not reponsive enough for me.....though absolute gent in every other way.
Could have cried.

What do you mean untried ptaty70?? Do you mean literally untried?? .....No chance. There's no way I would buy one without trying it first. In my situation, I can't afford the risk physically or financially. It's sponsorship money and not mine which is financing this horse so even if I had ANY ideas of doing so, I couldn't! (But I don't ) And also, I've seen so many misrepresented horses that....yeeesh! The very thought of it scares me!!

Yes, I do wonder if the horse I want/can manage exists. I don't know. The trouble is: in order to further my dressage 'career' I need a horse with better movement. Sadly some horses with superb movement are out of the running because the movement is too big for me to sit to, because of my immobile pelvis and unstable 'hip'. Ok, it may be that I'll never get the stability and balance to sit to really wonderful dressage paces.....and so that I'll have to remain a crap dressage rider for the rest of my life, that's something I just don't know yet.And thought it won't exactly fool any judges, I have to find something else to wow them...something I am good at. I haven't had a horse good enough to find out my real fortes yet, but I suspect it might lie in dressage to music or something like that. I'm not saying just cos it's to music, you get away with poor paces, I'm saying I may just have sufficient talent in music and in dressage, to be able to combine them and allow me to stir some judge's imagination.

I don't know indeed. All I do know, is that I'm ready to step out of the comfort zone of a riding school horse who though reasonably sensitive and obedient, and she will go in a semblance of an outline if you insist, does not enjoy her work and lets you know that. She just patiently obeys and then halts at the first opportunity. End of lesson. I want more than that now.

 

[DeirdreBarlow]

I think a home-made version sounds just perfect .

Of course, finding that quiet, safe, amenable, patient, well-schooled dressage horse would be THE ideal , but (horses being horses) we usually have to make some type of compromise.
For you, in your specific situation, that compromise is no doubt more tricky to negotiate.
However, I think the compromise usually ends up being less about which "traits"/colours/breeds/attributes we'll sacrifice, and more about how long we're willing to wait/ how far we're willing to travel/ how much money we're willing to pay.
I say this because I've no doubt that if you (or virtually anyone for that matter) looked for long enough, travelled far enough and had a high enough budget (or even just one of those 3 ) - you'd certainly find that PERFECT ONE.
But in doing so you could be searching for days/weeks/months/years, travelling 10's/100's/100's of miles, or/and paying 100's/1000's/10's-of-thousands of pounds.
It's a risk - there's just no way of knowing how lucky you'll be.

And no matter how experienced you are, or how many try-outs you have with the potential horse - Mr Perfect can turn out to be anything but afew months down the line. So even with "THE ONE" you're taking a chance.

As far as training a PERFECT-MINUS-THE-DRESSAGE horse goes - it's certainly plausible.
If the horse had the potential (tracked up, conformation was in his/her favour, nice paces, and had the right mindset (ie, enjoyed learning, liked schooling (some hackers are a devil to get going in the school no matter how placed they are!), learnt quickly, and was fairly sensitive to aids (ie, no hardened mouths or numb sides to contend with) - then even at age 10 there's plenty of hope there (lots in fact!).

It's a matter of weighing up time, versus price, versus your willingness to wait/train etc etc etc etc. . .
I can't be anymore help I'm afraid than setting out my thoughts on the whole horse buying philosophy. Probably no help at all but worth a shot I felt.

Edited to add: I'm sure I don't know of anything suitable. But if you could remind me of your criteria I'll try and have a think!

 

[Monty]

Yes, I disappeared that last thread RM......seemed silly to leave it. Took your advice and started it as a new thread.

It's perfectly fine DB, I need everyone's input here, to make sure i think it through properly. Sadly my instructor likes having my e-mails telling me how I'm getting on in my search, but isn't really interested in a practical sense.

And whilst I now feel quite confident about finding a horse for myself, knowing whether to trust it, whether it'll suit my requirements, I need to take advice on something a little more unorthodox like this. I have to accept, that I may never be able to ride the horse that appeals to me. I can see one ridden with beautiful paces, and yet however adorable the temperament, I'll never be able to reproduce those paces because of my balance. So I have to work with whatever physical attributes I've got, and I just wonder whether moulding akind, willing happy hacker to suit would be easier than trying to get an established dressgae horse with phenomenal paces to unlearn some of his wonderful work. I think it would break me to do that to any horse.

 

[Lot1983]

Monty, there was an article in one of this months horse mags about a lady that breeds Paso Fino (i think) horses as they have particularly smooth gaits suitable for people with injury or disability who don't want to give up riding, this may be it:

http://www.pasofinosales.com/

http://www.stoneyforkpasos.homestead.com/

May be worth a look, my friend rode one in Florida recently and she said that they were so comfy even the novices were trotting for long periods without discomfort! (and they weren't too keen on cantering!!!)

x

 

[Ms Kitty]

I was just about to say the same thing as Lot1983, you just have to find a horse, or a type of horse, that has the combination of nice movement and comfy to sit at the same time. There are some out there (I know it for a fact as I own one) but it is hard to say what would be the one for you without testing.

I also think that home made one would probably be easiest to find in your case. Something that already has the trustworthy elements ready so that you can easily handle and get on, but who will need the final bringing on done by yourself. That way you will get a horse that will react to your spesific aids right from the start.

And even if you buy a horse that is ready to go do Dressage surely you would still have to re-train him to your aids? With help I am sure it will not take much longer to train a not ready one, just as long as the potential is there.

Nina x

 

[eml]

Very do-able Monty and I would have thought a better way to go as any horse you have will have to work to your aids.

My daughter is one of the sickening people who get on any pony/horse and get it working well and looking like a million dollars. She once took a 14hh pony I had bought for £350 for the school to a local show. Lots of people said wow what a fantastic pony but others said but looks who is riding it.

Moral of the story there are a lot of stunning horses/ponies out there who 'only' have been happy hacks and it doesn't mean that is all they can do.

 

[Monty]

I think we may have to tackle the problem this way round, mayn't we??
Thinks......Lo-o-o-ong thinks!

Thank you all for your suggestions, and for not pooh-poohing the idea out of hand. Mmmmmmm.

Ok, I shall look at it this way tentatively for a while. Thank you.

 

[kayjayhorses]

Ok both my horses were introduced to dressage later in life both I used to jump but really reached their maximum potential.

One mare was introduced to dressage at 14yrs old below is one of her 1st dressage comps, no dressage schooling under her belt at all, began training at home but as you can see she's more interested in whats around her.

Pics after some training, bearing in mind that at this tiime I didn't have a menage and all my training was done on grass in all weather.

My other mare is 20yrs, unfortunately riding on grass wasn't actually letting us make much progress but since moving May last year she's has made great progress, she's doing walk and trot tests at the moment, winning 1st time out in December and coming 2nd at her 2nd show last weekend.

 

[Ptaty70]

What do you mean untried ptaty70?? Do you mean literally untried?? .....No chance. There's no way I would buy one without trying it first. In my situation, I can't afford the risk physically or financially.

Yes, I do wonder if the horse I want/can manage exists. I don't know. The trouble is: in order to further my dressage 'career' I need a horse with better movement. .

Hi Monty, no meant untried as in untried at dressage, not that you haven't tried the horse out. That would be MADNESS it was just another terminology for 'home-made' which to me sounds a bit like breeding and rearing your own horse.

I think that many horses are out there with the scope to give you the type of performance you want, it's just spotting that potential and you are possibly passing many by because you were looking for somehting with more experience. Unfortunately it may mean seeing rather a lot of horses as it will be one you 'click' with that gets your juices flowing and who knows when that will be..

An irish cob at our stables is as safe as houses, looks fab, and the judges just LOVE him. He came over as a 4 year old and was a terror and through schooling and help from the RI, the horse became a winner. Everyone loved his paces and solid tests. I wouldn't have said he would have been good at dressage when I first met him though. the talent was spotted by the RI.

I think this is certainly an option for you. Don't be disheartened... there are indeed horses out there who can go far, not just the warmbloods/showier breeds of the world.

Please keep positive. How about enlisting all of us here to go and view any suitable horses like you did with the horse in Guildford. Many of us would be willing to help.

Eyes and ears are open....

 

[Monty]

Ah thank you for explaining that.....I'm not good at terminology. Yes, getting confused between home made and home grown there!! And KJH, you now have me convinced.......blimey.....what a difference! Gorgeous.

Think I need to be a little more open minded now, when I choose which horses to go and have a nosey at.
Thank you.

 

[Bronya]

You could always get a good trainer to help you school it, and to ride it for you when necessary to teach the horse something new. A horse that you have trained will react well to your specific aids, and everyone rides slightly differently.

I would, though, get something relatively young if you want to train your own. You will know where it's been, how it's been handled, and will be able to impact its basic training beyond walk/trot/canter (though you won't be cantering!). If it were me, I'd look for a mare with temperament to die for, simply because such horses do exist (I've got one), and that they do exist at a young age. Horses that have only had one/two owners are still willing to try to bond with their owner, to create that special relationship where they want to look after you, because they care, and mares in my experience more so than geldings. You need a horse that wants to look after you, and will compensate for you yet be safe and try its best. If you can find one with whom you'll be able to create that bond, you'll end up with a more pleasant riding experience and a greater chance of good scores, than buying a ready made horse who just isn't interested in you beyond being relatively good.

For example, my boyfriend rides my pony. She has become very attached to him and has really bonded, and she looks after him. If she thinks he's unbalanced and shouldn't do something, she won't. If she feels him becoming unbalanced in trot, she'll walk, and so on. For anyone else she's a bolshy little pony, but with him, she's sweet and loving and so very caring. He has a dodgy elbow and most of the time has to ride one-handed, but she adjusts to that and behaves. If he asks her to learn something new, she'll try her very hardest to get it right, whether his aids are perfect or now, because she wants to please.

Age-wise, my horse at 4yo was kinder and safer than most older horses I tried. If I'm tired or upset she's perfect, if I'm ready for more fun, we have it, and if I try to teach her something she tries her very hardest. I got her at 4, and it took 6 months for her to bond. My boyfriend met my pony when she was 4, and it took them about the same amount of time, yet I've seen so many older horses who have just given up on humans - why bother to get attached when they'll just sell you on....

Good luck in your search, you will find something eventually...

 

[Ptaty70]

Ah thank you for explaining that.....I'm not good at terminology.

me neither.. hence our miscommunication!! I look forward to hearing about your exploits in horse-finding. When the time is right, the best horse in the world will just turn up. Probably one you weren't even going to see, but just happened to be on the yard, or one you've liked for ages which suddenly comes up for sale.

Everything happens for a reason, you just have to follow opportunities thrown your way. It could be the path to the right horse (oh god, what DO I sound like..... )

 

[Monty]

Hehe!! I won't tell you. Tis funny though. When I went to see this horse in Cumbria on Friday, the owner's grandmother was there for a nosey I suspect. She heard me ring my OH on my mobile, speaking to him in welsh. It wasn't done so they didn't undertsnd what I was saying, I quite simply wouldn't dream of speaking anything but welsh to my other half.

She picked up on it, and commented that I didn't sound like I could speak welsh...hehe!! Tis a very useful ploy!! Turns out she was born and brought up about 15 miles away from me, and went to St Brigid's convent school where my daughter goes, which is not our nearest secondary school by a long stretch! Small world!

So I know what you mean, I'll probably en dup with a four year old stallion, (well that's a bit of an exaggeration, but y'know what I mean!!) or a very unusual sort of horse, or as you said, one I never expected to come up for sale. These things do happen. I can certainly envisage finding one locally, now that I've travelled half the country in my search!