parelli-not so natural.

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Thats my definition too Wally:) Hence the reason I select the ideas I like from everybody and ignore the bits I don't and blend it all with common sense and experience and a knowledge of the particular pony/horse.

I am sorry to hear about your bad experiences though Helen03 :(
 
Wally you make a good point, but how common is common sense? In my dealings with a lot of people it is about as abundent as hens teeth. I know that, to people who are already good horsemen, a lot of it is stating the blindingly obvious. But there are thousands of horses in livery yards around this country who their owners do not know how to handle safely, and cannot be ridden at walk, trot and canter without either the rider being put in danger or being frightened. What tends to happen is people 'cope' with the horses and ride them in very limited amounts or circumstances if at all. At least Parelli gives them something safe and educational to do playing the ground games. It gets the poor horses out of their stables, and starts the owners understanding what makes their horses minds tick. That if nothing else makes it worthwhile in my book.
 
Originally posted by helen03
the man that did this stuff to tommy is called mark rodney , he is from australia and is supposed to be the next best thing to pat parelli himself.

Makes me ashamed to be an Australian. Yes i have heard of him, and i have seen one of his demo's, though he was a bit firmer fisted that i would have though necessary, he wasn't anything as bad as you describe, is there any organisation you can report him to?
 
Wally, Janet I've had this very discussion a number of times and certainly it may just be 'commonsense' to 'horse people' (if I may phrase it that way). But there are so many of us, who are new to horses these days, they simply aren't a part of our lives in order for us to pick up 'commonsense' by osmosis so you learn by example and\or whoever is around.

...and then who's commonsense? Yours? Pat Parelli's? the bloke who's just been had by the SPCA on some cruelty charge ? (had horses all me life...) ? the stereotypical pony club\BHS instructor (sorry if you are one and hate this ) who stermly commands that the horse MUST do as its told and uses a crop on a frightened animal....

commonsense is a tricky thing ...

:)
 
Commonsense ought to tell you that someone that can set out a system of training in a logical and progressive manner, and give the reasons why they are doing what they are doing, and evidence those reasons and assertions ought to be worth listening to. A lot of 'trainers' can 'show' you what to do but cannot teach you to do it yourself, so a progressive system that allows anyone to learn skills should be a prerequisite. Talent is a process, and unless a training system (be it for horse or rider) focuses on the 'process' it is doomed to fail for most people. There are several trainers that give good evidence of their process. Of the ones I am familiar with Pat Parelli and Mary Wanless appear to me to be the most open and transparent.
 
Mebbe natural horsemanship is defined as informed common sense. Us old souls who grew up hanging round the stables at w/es, working for rides and absorbing "horse" like a sponge, and getting kicked and bitten if we did not :D :mad:, had an education that just is not around for today's youngsters or their teachers. I admit to 40+ but considering most tutors at riding stables are in their 20's that is two generations who have not learnt horse straight from the horse's mouth!
The old ostlers of yore were, in the main fantastic horsemen. You try dominating a full size shire when you are ploughing with it. They were around horses morning noon and night. Unfortunately it does not take long to "educate" a young person who is naturally "horsewise" out of such wisdom when constantly in the company of some modern experts!
 
As much as what happened to your horses was bad I feel quite strongly about your attitude towards Natural Horsemanship. You dont really have a right to say what you have, this was one experienced with one man. Natural Horsemanship is a totally amazing thing and personally I believe it is the only way horses should be handled, trained etc. Also this was your horse. You have complete control of everything that happens to it. One thing the Association of Natural Horsmanship makes very clear is that when they are working with your horse if at any time you are not happy you stop what they are doing.
 
Where i learn to ride my instructor uses natural type of horsemanship to train horses which he buys cheaply mostly because of behaviour problems. I have talked to a couple of people who think that he gets a bit rough with them and yes sometimes when they don't want to listen he does get strong (no whips though) but what really amazes me is how gentle and soft he becomes when they do listen to him and how they seem to look up to him and want to be with him and that has to say a lot.

I know that he looks out for the horses body language to read whether they're reacting from fear or disrespect. He was riding a pony today that has had a hard time in the past and tends to get fearful and a bit reactive when someone's on his back. When he finished with his training session this pony just wanted to be with him and was following his every movement because that's where he seemed to feel safe. It was lovely to see.
 
Parelli Natural Horsemanship

I understand that the writer's experience was not good but I cannot agree with writing off all of the good stuff about PNH because of one poor experience. I have just started reading about PNH and have found a number of good ideas. Your experience sounds very much against the ideals that PNH tries to promote i.e. trust, consistency and love of the horse. I have looked at a number of different training methods including PNH, Intelligent horsemanship(Kelly Marks), Clicker training, tteam and good old fashioned patience and persistance. I have found that you can take useful ideas from all of them and adapt them to suit your own horse but the most important idea is to build trust with your horse and have fun. Richard Maxwell says that you should never allow anyone to do anything to your horse that you do not feel comfortable with and this is the best piece of advice I have seen anywhere. My riding instructor doesn't use any method as such but I have learnt a massive amount form her. She is calm and collected most of the time but uses firmness and discipline when necessary - this does not mean beating the horse. You are ultimately responsible for what happens to your horse and I think that some natural horsemanship ideas will help you but at the end of the day you have to let your instincts guide you and what feels wrong is wrong.
 
Sorry to hear about your bad experiance Helen!! I think you told me quite soon after it happened, and so you had all my views on it then!!

My yard owner defined Parelli NH as 'common sense which you have to pay for, a stick which is related to a carrot and most people are doing it already, but just cant see it yet'. I stick to that! I mean, whats with the carrot stick?? Can the horses eat it? Is it smelly? Can humans eat it too? Can you chop it up, cook it and eat it with your roast dinner?? Can you put it in a cake?? But hang on, hasnt PP already changed it?? Isn't it called a wallop stick now?

Ax ~ Jx
 
Helen did not have an unpleasant experience with Parelli Natural Horsemanship Helen did not have an unpleasant experience with Parelli Natural Horsemanship

She had an unpleasant experience with someone who did not meet the standards of PNH and had already been rejected by them for his lack of standards.

It's like blaming Macdonalds for the poor quality of the food at the sleazy burger joint down the road. Just because they describe their products in the same terms does not indicate comparable quality or digestability. You might not like the food at Macdonalds, but at least you know what you are getting. At the unregulated cheap alternative you could get more than you bargained for including food poisening.
 
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janet, although i was done and dusted with this thread months and months ago, i must add that at the time mark rodney saw tommy he WAS still working under parelli therefore call it what you like but i still call it natural horsemanship.
 
Hi Helen

He may have called it 'natural horsemanship ' and that was certainly what you were expecting - but it does not sound like that is what he delivered !

At least not in the generally accepted definition (and I'm talking broader than PNH here).

Personally I wouldn't credit behaviour like that with the word 'horsemanship' let alone put a 'natural' anywhere near it. No wonder you were upset. But please don't let one person's behaviour tar your view of natural horsemanship. There are, sadly, 'rogue' instructors out there in most approachs to riding (Just read some of the posts on this board !). They are rare and a minority - not to excuse them but they are not necessarily representative of the approach itself.

What happened with the original 'problem' with your horse ?

(Janet - I WOULD complain if I went into a MacDonalds that was clearly labelled as MacDonalds, sold something as a MacDonalds product, and had a problem - even if the manager was later sacked by the company.)
 
Originally posted by janet hakeney

You might not like the food at Macdonalds, but at least you know what you are getting.

Sorry, this is totally off thread but after finding out that they put chicken fat in their milkshakes and ice creams, and they dont put it on the ingrediants list, I think we dont actually know what we are getting!!!

Ax
 
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