please help still wont pick feet up and biting increased.!!

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allthegearnoidea

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Dec 16, 2006
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Hello all, im still having a couple of issues and cant see a way forward.
fatty still wont pick feet up i got a friends dad to pick his feet up for me yesterday-it takes strength- and he pulled back and reared up snapping the bale twine. I think he must have felt unbalanced and that his foot was too high up. Im very concerned now that i cant do something as simple as pick his feet out.
His biting has got very bad, over the stable door when grooming and when putting headcollar on. Please help everyone any ideas tricks or thoughts pleeeeeaaaasssseee!!!
On the plus side he hacked out - with me walkng in front, no problem yesterday ( my friends daughter rode him)and when i said trot and started running he did, but straight at at me!!
He would only move if i was in front -on the way back it was another story he was more than willing to go infront, what am i going to do with him?
 
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If you can't see a way forward I would get some professional help in the form of an RA if you have one in your area, they deal with all sorts of problems like yours on a regular basis :)
 
Agree with Yann, it's time to get someone in to help you. I had a quick squizz through some of your previous posts and I think if you could just get someone out for a couple of sessions to help you understand how behavioural training works (the rules for negative and positive reinforcement) then you would be okay. At the moment you seem to be having problems with both and this means that your horse is being confused by your actions (or lack of them).

I see in one of your previous posts that the farrier doesn't have a problem so this is definitely one where the horse is basically 'taking the p*ss' because he knows how behaviour\consequences work more than you (please don't be offended by that - it's true of about 75% of owners) - or to be more correct, you confuse him so he's refusing to deal with you at all. I've just provided some help to an owner with exactly the same problem - when I picked up a front foot it was fine - the owner couldn't. It was a case of getting the owner (in this case a child) to concentrate on what she was doing, use a routine and establish the exact sequence of actions that were to be used EVERY time that the horse either lifted correctly or refused to lift. Like this case you may need someone to help you with the first session - then the horse will almost immediately comply - they were happily picking out feet themselves from the next day on and it continues to improve.

Once you understand how R- R+ work then you will not have a problem sorting out any problems and will be able to provide treats without fear - most importantly your horse will be happy too!

BTW Biting as you describe it is usually a fear and\or territory related act. It increases based on how it is reacted to, but I would strongly advise you to get some help to deal with this - and not from the local band of 'experts' who will offer their opinions on all sorts of punishments (which will make it worse). Look carefully for someone with a good reputation and if possible find someone who has used clicker training (even if you don't use the clicker in this situation clicker trainers understand all modes of reinforcement behavioural training)
 
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Thankyou for the replies.When i got this horse 3 months ago i made a concerted effort to do everything properly. I make sure that i try to stick to routines as much as possible. When i attempt to pick his feet out its always the same routine, start on the same leg etc. He wasnt to bad to start with, he has actually got worse.Yes without a shadow of a doubt he is taking the mickey. He doesnot get told off if he doesnt pick up feet, i walk away and do something else for a minute and then return and try again.I must also mention that whilst the farrier could lift his feet it wasnt without a wrestle and with the best will in the world i havent got the strength of a farrier.
He is very very lazy and very cunning, avoidance is his middle name.
Today with the help of the groom and a leadrope we were able to lift a front foot. He locked his leg and pointed his leg straight out behind him. He wouldnot bend it at the knee. To be honest it looked really funny but its not funny when you have to hold the full weight of his leg. Treats to reward are out of the question the previous owner gave him titbits constantly-hence no sign of biting when we went to view.However he does get a scratch and praise when he lifts a foot. I am trying to be consistent and i have studied psychology-all be it humans!!So i have a knowledge of conditioning,negative and positive reinforcement etc
Remember he isnt your standard horse he has the body of a shire with the legs of a shetland-(slight exageration.)and may just feel unstable lifting a leg. , also bear in mind the farriers use metal frames to support the legs.
What i need is a cunning plan - i just havent thought of one yet
 
Oh just to add i did have a natural horsemanship trainer come out. What a waste of time that was.In fact that was the first time i saw him attempt to bite anyone.Without going in to details i am now very wary of whos advise i take.I have been conned twice firstly by the seller, and secondly by a natural horsemanship instructor who i now know knew less than me!!
 
Don't judge all NH trainers by one, anymore than you would judge all shires by one, all arabs by one, all cultures by one individual, etc. Just find a different one and try again.

Unfortunately, psychology in humans just does not translate well to horses. It is the difference between prey and predator animals.

I agree with Yann- you need professional help. Yes it is expensive, but worth it once you find the right trainer. What you describe is a dangerous situation, for you and the horse.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news:( , but I think the self-help that you desire is probably beyond what NR can give you... sometimes it really takes hands-on help to solve such difficult problems.
 
I had this problem recently , I could pick three of his legs up but not the front left leg, he would follow my hand with his nose as i ran my hand down his leg and just look at me. I thought maybe it was a pain thing or something until he picked up all four for my husband.
I just couldn't get him to pick his leg up no matter what i did,then one day i was not in the best of moads as he had been a pain bringing him from the field so i went at him in a far more determined way,my body language was "bigger" if you like and hey presto he picked his foot up.
I gave him lots of fuss when he did it and we haven't looked back.
I don't hit my horse or try to be the boss which means that sometimes he will try things on but if i wanted a horse to dominate i could of bought Butterscotch Pony and taken the batteries out when i got fed up of it !
 
Hi Jo, my cob used to be a little sod for not picking his feet up, but then he had never been taught how to do it, so was difficult. He was fine with his back feet, but the fronts, well he would wave them about like no tomorrow, stamp them back down or just plant them. He is a lot better, but it took a long time to sort him out.

He still isn't sure about his front if he isn't standing square, so I just move him so he is standing on four feet and then pick the front up.

I agree with Yann about contacting a Kelly Marks RA, the one who came to me was Linda Ruffle and was very good. Might be worth a call:

http://www.montyroberts.co.uk/

As you know cobs are very intelligent and very quickly work out what they can and can't get away with. It's such a shame that they get sold as being suitable for novice or first time owners, when really a lot aren't.

Have you had his back checked out, sometimes they find it difficult to lift their legs if they are in pain. Worth a thought.

I wish people wouldn't titbit horses, it causes soooo much trouble, with nipping and such like!

Don't give up on all NH trainers because the one you had didn't work out for you.

Good luck.:)
 
Beleive it or not bolshy cob was an angel today, picked up all 4 feet, and as for waving head and gnashing teeth over stable door ijust put his headcollar o and off 15 times i think he got bored in the end, im thinking this may actually be his greeting me in the morning because he never speaks!!!
 
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