Problems halting, what should I do?

Drummers mum

I love my pony!
Feb 1, 2004
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Sometimes Drummer can be strong and I have to watch I don't hang on his mouth when I ask him to slow down, but lately he just won't halt.

I use the verbal command "and stand" and I think I'm asking ok because he half halts but then just keeps edging forward, opening his mouth, sticking his nose in the air and kind of twisting his head. Or if I give with the reins he just walks on. I ride him in a loose ring french link and plain nose band.

I know its being naughty because when I ask him to stand in the yard when I get off he does it perfectly! lol!

I suppose I could try a different bit or nose band but as I'm not particularily having problems elsewhere..................HELP! Please :(
 
Originally posted by Drummers mum
I know its being naughty because when I ask him to stand in the yard when I get off he does it perfectly! lol!

That doesn't necessarily indicate that it's naughtiness when he doesn't halt.

What aids are you using specifically? What are you doing with your hands, your seat, and your legs when you are asking for a halt? Have you changed any of it recently, aside from of course the saddle change?

Half halting to a whoa may not be the best way to go about it. With half-halt you ask the horse to slow/come back, but also to keep moving forward. If all you're doing is repeated half-halting, then you're still asking him to move forward with each application of the aids.
 
Parelli teaches a one-rein stop. If you ask the horse to halt, and it doesn't, apply pressure to one rein, so that the horse bends. If he wants to circle, let him but keep the pressure on the rein, and keep repeating, "And stand" until he halts. Then release the pressure and praise! :D

However, this sentence, "opening his mouth, sticking his nose in the air and kind of twisting his head" makes me think it might be worth getting the dentist out, just to make sure the bit isn't catching him in the teeth.
 
Dentists been showjumper. Only 2 weeks ago! Will try the Parelli halt next time I ride.

Galadriel: I didn't mean I ask for a half halt, what I meant was he starts to halt but then does the open mouth think and just keeps walking on. So how should I ask for halt? I kind of sit still but tall, tighten my bum muscles and close my hands around the reins plus the verbal. If you take your feet out the stirrups he stops straight away!
 
I had similar problems with Bud (leaning on the bit is pretty common in x-racers). I fixed it by really drilling on teaching him to halt and down-transition to seat alone (by stopping the movement of the seat and back).

Also, practice sitting deep while halted and walking. If you are really deep in the saddle and have your hands in the proper position, when he pulls on the reins, it will pull you down even deeper into the saddle so that he is not pulling against just your arms, but against your back and seat. If you are doing it correctly, you should feel it in our seat and back, but not your arms.
 
Don't know how this works!

I was having trouble halting the school mare I've been riding. She's had her mouth ruined and I try to be very gentle with her and it seems to be working. Problem was I couldn't get a halt without really pulling much harder than I wanted to. Then someone said to me

"You have to think "halt" before you ask for it, squeeze your bum cheeks together" I tried that and it still didn't work. Then she said "Take a deep breath in, lift your ribcage up, breathe out, but leave your ribcage high and ask for halt". She stopped dead!!! Today she stopped if I lifted my ribcage and tilted my pelvis forwards. All I had to do with the reins was close my fingers!!! I was amazed. I have no idea how lifting my ribcage helps, anyone out there got any ideas?
 
You've just answered your own question!! Take the weight off your stirrups as if you were taking your feet out - it can have the effect of tightening your seat in just the way the horse understands to halt.
I discovered this on one of mine that I had the same problem with - worked like a charm on her, and most other horses too.
 
I had a similar problem with my cob last year when I first bought him.
Firstly, check his teeth?
What bit are you using? It may be worth maybe changing it. My cob was in a pelham but with some advice from some people down the yard we changed it to a Jointed Dutch Gag and haven't looked back - now when I squeeze on the reins he listened instead of trying to get above/below the bit and ignore me.

Just an idea - good luck - let us know how you get on.:D
 
I have to say that I am kind of confused. How can you relax and sit deeply and still tighten your seat? Last week my instructor said to imagine you are dropping an anchor off your butt (image!!).
 
Drummers mum,

Any horse not stopping on cue is a horse that is not yielding.

Yielding is a mental decision that shows up (is evidenced) in a physical action. Just about every action that we cue a horse to take requires a yield in the horse's mind, or the action isn't performed properly.

Drummer is not stopping immediately because he is not yielding to your cue fully and immediately. He has un-learned (i.e., regressed, "gotten rusty") at the mental activity of yielding in the context of communication via the bit.

So the thing to do is to get him real proficient at yielding in his mind, as demonstrated by his action of yielding in the context of communication via the bit.

(It is not uncommon for any horse to regress at some action that it hasn't practiced; and, unless we repeatedly practice a horse at the fundamentals, such as yielding in its mind, it probably will regress.)

Before I suggest "how to…", let me comment upon the information you provided:

I lead Drummer around alot (like in the dances with horses book)...

I do the Parelli friendly game...

I lunge very infrequently and when I do, I do it like in dances with horses...

I also do carrot stretches which has lead to me teaching him to bow!
All of this is very good; as it serves well to maintain yielding and acceptable behaviors in other contexts. I advise you to continue.

However, I do not see specific direct flexion and yield exercises other than the carrot stretch (which although valuable, is limited in effect.) Exercises that are missing are those such as bending to the flanks, Give To The Bit, "…picking up a soft feel", etc. These typically exercise and build lateral and longitudinal flexion (of which the mental yield is requisite.) Lateral and longitudinal flexion are requisite to a good (i.e., effective, light, and prompt) stop.

I'll suggest a few flexion exercises below.
What do you think about going bitless?
Whether you take a horse bitless or not, use a "jaquima" or hackamore, use a snaffle or shank bit, or use a "Cherokee Bridle", the fundamental training issue is to train the horse to softly respond (i.e., yield in the mind to the cue, and act accordingly.)

I use a halter to train or re-train every horse as the initial means to (re-)train the horse to yield, and I ride the horse in the halter at all gaits (including backup). Then I train the horse to either a snaffle or a "jaquima"; or, all three.

I'm training the horse to yield as a specific behavior under a variety of conditions. I am not training to hardware.

You see, if we train the horse to yield, then it does not matter what type nor amount of hardware that we use to communicate with the horse. (This is why Parelli can do all of the fancy galloping and cutting while mounted on a horse that has no equipment whatsoever on it: no saddle and nothing on its head.)

Contrariwise, if we do not have a good yield in the horse, then we are spending time and effort trying to find hardware that is acceptable to the horse. (Read: hardware that mitigates the affects of the rider's hands and actions, so that the horse will respond properly. Or worse, hardware that implements fear of pain as the underlying training principle to get compliance.)

However, remaining "bitless" does allow one to ride without addressing the training issues that occur when the horse has a bit in its mouth. This is certainly okay if one does not wish to address those issues. Personal choice.

"Bit" problems are just never on my radar screen (or not for long.) Why? Because I train horses to yield; in many contexts; and as we accomplish this and the horse learns to yield as a habit, the symptoms (i.e., bit/mouth problems) of lack of yielding disappear.
Basically I think I need to work on balance and getting Drummer to use himself properly and work through his back???
Yes you do; but, after you build a solid foundation.

Yielding is foundational. Get that first, foremost, and always. Then work on Drummer using himself properly. (And, when he yields properly and consistently, he'll do every other thing better; including using himself better.)

In terms of Drummer, I suggest that you implement additional exercises into your regular ground work and riding; exercises that specifically target the yield; trained to a habit. These are:

1. Work on soft yields of both the head and body on the ground and then in the saddle.

The specific exercises in this category in order of ascending complexity are:
A. Bend the nose to the flank (or knee of the mounted rider.)
B. Backup from the ground.
C. Parelli's Yo-Yo Game.
D. Parelli's Circle Game (with emphasis on a proper stop: a Hindquarter Step-Over at the stop.)
E. Hindquarter Step-Over from the flanks while on the ground and while mounted (also known as Breaking the Hindquarters Over.)
F. Forehand Step-Over from the flanks while on the ground and while mounted. This and the previous item are the two elements found in Parelli's "Sideways Game".
G. Hindquarters 180 - Frontquarters 180. This another mounted version of item E and F above, run together as a complete exercise. This is published in Marty Marten's Problem Solving Volume 2.

2. Train Drummer to pick up a "soft feel" on cue while mounted.

This is "tricky" to learn, because you have to get very good with your hands and your "feel"; but, it's worth the effort. The exercise is published in several places, such as Marty Marten's Problem Solving Volume 2. The action the horse performs is known within the English world as the horse coming "on the bit."

3. Work on transition down with one rein.

Use one direct rein to transition down/slow Drummer by bending his head about 15-25 degrees and hold it until he gets to the required gait/speed. Get him real good at this; then you'll find that he'll be better with two reins (but, never pull back with two reins.)

4. Teach him to back up straight and lightly, using Pat Parelli's "Nine-Step Backup" (or an equivalent exercise.) Then, progress to using just your seat to cue a backup (no reins.)

A horse that backs well, stops well. Parelli's "Nine-Step Backup" is very effective and is published in his Natural Horse-Man-Ship book.

5. Teach him to stop on a loose rein (using only the seat as the cue.)

Use "life" (energy) in your seat to cause him to move; and, no life to cue him to stop. Train him to listen primarily to your seat, and that the reins are only tertiary (after the legs.)


Summary

The exercises above are merely a sample of those available to help Drummer (re-)learn to yield to your cues. These are what I use daily, and I never have a no yield problem for very long; in short, they work.

However, success with these exercises require that one learns how to cue the exercise properly, and to understand and evaluate proper performance of the horse for each exercise. This can be achieved via study by the human, and practice with the horse.

Also, the descriptions and specific steps of the exercises are generally available by obtaining various books and/or videos. Otherwise, some may be available various training sites on the Internet, or may have been posted (in one form or another) in other threads. We can list the specific steps herein for those things that are not copyright protected, or for the variations that are not copyright protected.

If you do these exercises with Drummer, and get him proficient at doing them correctly, you will not have a stopping problem; nor many other common problems.

You will have a horse that yields well.

I hope this helps you and Drummer.

Best regards,
Harry
 
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Bebe was a pain to halt out on hacks, I must have tried just about every combination of aids to get her to halt without resorting to using the reins but none of them worked.

A few weeks ago I was out on a hack and was experimenting with different aids to see what response they got. I tried the Mary Wanless bearing down thing, easiest way to describe it is a bit crass but basically you push down as though you're on the toilet! Voila, instant halt - soft, relaxed and 4 square. I had to do it a few times just to believe it was working but it does and Bebe stays halted for as long as I want after releasing the aid instead of rushing off like she used to do.

In combination with the bearing down I do have to softly close my fingers on the reins but it's a very tiny aid and is released immediately upon feeling her prepare to halt. If I don't close my fingers I get a strong half halt (not a rebalancing kind, for that you do need the reins but more of a "yes I'm listening" type of response).
 
Ok, just a quick up date if anyones interested.

Over the winter (can't ride evenings, too dark) I'm going to do what Harry suggests and I'm looking at a full Parelli pack on ebay.

But, I did try the Parell halt and it worked a treat, we got the odd circle but moast times he halted spot on!

We also tried Mary Wanless baring down thing and that worked. (when I got it right, lol!)

Anyway, all in all I feel alot better, all is not lost!:rolleyes:
 
I had the same problem with mine, he just wasnt understanding the transition commands.. so my instructor told me to take a deep breath in, relax your shoulders and breath out whilst squeezing the reins, releasing when correct, is this the Mary wanless technique? Well if not, it works in all downward transitions!!
 
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