progess not really happening-feeling a bit rubbish, long post, sorry. Any advice?

BlueWicked

BlueWicked

fluff-free
Jan 13, 2008
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in the real world...
I have now had my lovely boy for 3 1/2 months:D

I totally love and adore the very ground his wee hoofies step on:D:eek: - the one challenge we have had form day on is head carriage. I have posted about it a few times. He is 12, has never been schooled to accpet a contact properly having been jumped a lot and driven, th e people who had him werent fussed about getting a rounded shape from him (which I know even with him mainly jumping would still have been beneficial, lol

This resulted in quite an upside down neck, with a lot of hard muscle underneath... and this most of the time unless I gave him a loose rein and no contact...
bluelessonfeb08031.jpg


So; back check, physio visits and lunging/stretching programme in place, teeth done (very very sharp, scarred cheeks:() and saddle fit. The muscle under his neck has reduced a lot and is softer now.

I have been trying sooo hard to get him going nicely:eek: I have 2 different instructors. One of which doesnt mention my position but gets me doing lots of spiraling circles, inside leg on etc etc and he has been heard to comment at points during lessons "j**** god, I would never have thought it possible!":eek::D As Blue responds - momentarily. The other RI focuses on my position and says I hunch forward and tip too much, and need to get my lower leg back. When I have her continually telling me "shoulders back, tilt your pelvis, knee off, stretch down" etc there again are 'moments' when he gets under me and it comes together.

But- I just cant emulate any of this when Im on my own and Im getting so frustated and downhearted with it.

He WAS ridden in a single jointed aggbut snaffle that was fitted too low in his mouth. it was too thick for his wee mouth and fat tongue, so is now in a hanging cheek french link. Still in flash noseband and martingale. . and yes he needs the flash, he will open his gob and the head goes up and we're off otherwise:rolleyes:

Does anyone have any other suggestions here...? I know it is a long process, but I am feeling rather like Im failing with this and we are both getting frustrated. I dont school that often but I try to work him out on hacks as well....

I always ride with my body protector, but sometimes I do think it stops me getting my shoulders back... I also wonder if I should try another bit, try without the martingale...?

... anyone..? thanks :)
 
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have you had a rider assesment? it is often our body position that can hamper the horse. i'd highly recomend getting a rider assesment done. I had one and it did wonders for toby and i :) there are also clinics (run at ladyleys) combining the rider assesment and a lesson with the lady who teaches me so you get the repositioning and then a lesson to allow you to make the most of the changes.

http://www.pammillardressage.com/ladyleys_training.htm

Just give it time :) i've been having dressage lessons for almost 2 years and toby is still not 100% consistent. It's improved with changing the saddle and me reassessing my impact on his way of going but theres still work to be done.
 
Sounds like you are doing all the right things :)

Seeing as you have done all the physical checks I would perhaps experiment with a bit change, something really mild and comfortable to encourage acceptance. I have a neue schule training bit (v similar to KK by sprenger) and when I switched the improvement was instant (was previously in a french link).

My position sounds like yours, I have a tendence to tip forwards which doesn't help when you are trying to lighten their front end.

As for the martingale, if you feel you need it I'd carry on with it for now. I hack in one purely because when sir decides he wants to do his own thing and ignore my hands he swings his head vertically and I can see his nostrils!! Maybe start with a bit change and see how you go from there. Its still early days tho, these things take time!!!
 
Hi, you have a long job ahead of you if he has never worked round, I'm afraid. You are doing all the right things but your second instructor is correct to work on position. If you are not totally in balance even a well schooled horse will find it harder to work properly. Dont forget being "on the bit" on not just about what his head is doing. He needs to be ridden through from behind and every touch on the rein needs leg behind it. He will only be able to work correctly for very short periods at first! Give him lots of breaks on a long rein in between and use your voice to praise when you feel him softening. You could do a bit of work on the lunge - I am no big fan of strapping horses into position but you could try working him on longish side reins to see what he does. If it is your position interfering he should work into the side reins with less resistance but again, keep sessions short. Get your instructor to lunge him for you the first time if it helps. Any work that makes him stretch down is good, how about raised poles to get him to round his back and stretch a bit? Don't give up, sounds like you are on the right track, it just takes a bit of time! :):)
 
Weee-eel - not sure if what I've got to say is going to be much help, but for what it's worth - I've had my horse since last back end. She too had lots of muscle underneath rather than on top from never having been schooled to carry herself properly. I too have had teeth, back, saddle, done and re-done where necessary. Now having lessons fairly regularly incorporating some schooling but although am now seeing some progress, I've been told by two different instructors that I could well be looking at 12 months before she really starts to come good. Which is fine by me - she'll take as long as she takes. It sounds as though you're doing everything right - carrot stretches are good, I've just started those. I think, and I'm sure other people have posted similarly, that the head carriage is the last thing to fall into place - you need to get them working from behind, getting their back legs under them properly, lots and lots and lots of circles, serpentines, transitions to get them bending and flexing, and finally the head will more or less sort itself out - I think! You say he had very bad scarring on his cheeks - maybe there's still some residual discomfort or at least the memory of it that might be affecting him. As with so many of these issues, there often isn't a quick fix and it DOES take time and patience. Don't feel despondent - there's usually an answer out there somewhere.:)
 
thank you for the encouraging replies. I know it is a long term project, i guess Ive just felt like although we get momentary glimpses of light with an instructor there, I failing a bit in that i cant do it when Im on my own.

EB, Ive not heard of a rider assessment... will check out your link. thank you .
 
Two things spring to mind:

Can you get him going in an outline on the lunge & long rein ... I don't mean force him down, I just mean encourage him to raise his back without a rider as some horses find this easier. Don't know how you feel about training aids, but I find them useful to "catch" a hollowing horse (i.e. loose setting as a reminder more than as a constraint).

3 months is a very short period of time!
With Libby it took me 7 months to change round her neck muscles enough that she can carry herself (e.g. now lunges in an outline with headcollar only where before she was a banana). With Lucy it took me many months as well ... OK, I don't have facilities and I'm not the world's best rider (can't afford regular lessons, so it's a bit trial and error), but I do believe that musculature can't be changed too quickly - after all you're expecting him to completely re-evaluate the way he moves!

Good Luck :)
 
if you want to go straight to the horses mouth so to speak, check out here

http://www.physicalfengshui.com/pilates.htm

pauline's own website, cannot praise her highly enough. She corrected my pelvis and the uneven weight on my seatbones and we followed that with a lesson from my RI. Made a massive, massive difference :) best £20 i've spent!!
 
My one and only suggestion is “your trying to hard” does that make sense?

You have the ideal picture of what you want Blue to do but can’t create it which I can imagine gives you the frustration and so on and so forth makes you tense.

For a horse that could have been ridden like that for the past 12 years he will no way change in 3 months. I would be looking more towards the end of a year or even longer.

His muscle and his way of going is defined now. It’s going to take a lot on both parties to change that. It will also be very hard on him to change the way he’s used to working (hes built his muscles up that way) and will only be able to carry an outline for a short snip of time as it will feel strange. Short small bursts and allowing him to stretch out and through it would be my ideal just get his back end into gear and the front end will come.


When I got Chinook he was exactly the same. Neck upside down. Dutch Gag, running martingale. It took me 6 months of doing nothing but walk and some trot. Loads of transitions and just baby steps in reconditioning. Within a year he was slightly better at being able to work his body. But we were no way near perfect and it took ages for him to build up the stamina and be able to use the muscles he needed too.

Stay positive and try not think of the perfect outline just try to think of the small basics and work up from that

xx
 
thanks nookster:) lol, thats what my RI says - i try too hard:eek:

I have been speaking to someone from nueu shule as well, they say perhaps a grakle would be better than a flash for him - more comfortable? They also recommended the training snaffle with a lozenge over the bit he's in now. Frenchlink hanging cheek. She did also say that as he's sensitive in the poll area that this bit maybe having the wrong effect on him,a dn advised I get a bridle with a padded poll area.
 
I agree with the others that it sounds like you are doing all the right things.

I personally find that when I do lots of hacking my position goes to pot as I'm either relaxed and chatting or in a more forward seat depending what we're doing and I've found it hard to get back the position and quiet seat I had when we were schooling every day so I think it's just finding a balance.

Sounds like you're doing well though! It will take time but things seem to be going in the right direction so don't worry!:)
 
Does it really matter if he doesn't work on the bit? (I might be shot down in flames now)

For me, I'd have it as a long term goal, but not worry about it at the moment and just enjoy getting to know my new horse and have fun.

That way the pressure is taken of both of you.
 
cathUK said:
Does it really matter if he doesn't work on the bit? (I might be shot down in flames now)

For me, I'd have it as a long term goal, but not worry about it at the moment and just enjoy getting to know my new horse and have fun.

That way the pressure is taken of both of you.
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no, of course it doesnt. But I dont know if its because Im more aware of it, or if he's evading me more now Im trying - but its quite uncomfotable to ride with his head the way it is and i feel him snatching his head up all the time cant be a good thing for him either.

I dont necessarily want a rounded dressage horse - I was a happy comfortable horse:eek:

.... hence why im now wondering if the lady at neue schule was right about the poll pressure thing...
 
Is he in a hanging cheek at moment?

I personally would just say canvesson bridle with loose flash if needed. I would think opening mouth has come from trying to evade the last riders hand and the same goes for sensitive over his poll. Also would question if this is why he rushes To get over this you just need to ride with very caring hands rather then using flash or grackle and really go back to basics and start working back up (ie walk) and make sessions all about long and losse and gentle contact until you build the relationship that he now knows it you on the end of the reins?
 
Nookster said:
Is he in a hanging cheek at moment?

I personally would just say canvesson bridle with loose flash if needed. I would think opening mouth has come from trying to evade the last riders hand and the same goes for sensitive over his poll. Also would question if this is why he rushes To get over this you just need to ride with very caring hands rather then using flash or grackle and really go back to basics and start working back up (ie walk) and make sessions all about long and losse and gentle contact until you build the relationship that he now knows it you on the end of the reins?
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yes, a hanging cheek frenchlink. He does open his mouth and cross his jaw to evade though... I have tired riding a few times with flash done up very loosly and erm - I found the brakes disappeared and the new tactic was head down gob open:rolleyes:
 
would definately echo trying to hard! I'm the exact same. Skyla was ridden in a dutch gag before we got her and she does alot of head shaking and 'oh look whats that over there'. But the minute i relax and actually concentrate on my position and ignore where her head is, she goes into a lovely outline and last night I was actually like wow look look!
 
marsden said:
would definately echo trying to hard! I'm the exact same. Skyla was ridden in a dutch gag before we got her and she does alot of head shaking and 'oh look whats that over there'. But the minute i relax and actually concentrate on my position and ignore where her head is, she goes into a lovely outline and last night I was actually like wow look look!
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lol - at least its not just me. I got in such a kerfunkle at my last lesson I seriously could not get him to walk a straight line without drifting.:eek: RI told me to stop trying so hard and just 'sit', and erm - straight line achived:D Blue is ultra responsive and quite sensitive, so slight inclination of seat bone and he's off:rolleyes:
 
Not just you, everyone can try too hard! Just take a step back and relax and you normally get it without thinking about doing it! :)
 
I have been speaking to someone from nueu shule as well, they say perhaps a grakle would be better than a flash for him - more comfortable?
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Yes thats what I read on their website....they aren't too keen on closing the horses mouth in the centre as they feel it inhibits swallowing, so recommend drop nosebands or grackles. I use a grackle but half the time he doesn't wear a noseband at all. I figured that if I was going to use their bits (which I do) and my horse was going well in (which he does!) them I may as well follow the rest of their bridling advice!
 
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