Returner needs bit advice & brakes!

R

rosieg

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Oct 11, 2009
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Hi - I'm Rosie and a mature experienced rider (51), though haven't ridden for about 15 years. I have just been asked to care for a really lovely horse, 15.3 so I am back in the saddle again !! But I am struggling with a couple of things are need some help and advice.

I am not very strong now and do tend to have arthristis in my hands. I know that I will improve over the next few weeks, but I want to work and improve on Axel's control. He has and will be hunted by someone about every two weeks. Before moving to Marnhull, in Dorset where I live, he did a lot of dressage and not jumping. Now things are changed for him quite a lot. But we would like to improve the jumping and compete eventing with him.

I have noticed that he very fixed on the left side, I cannot get him to respond on to the bit through the left rein and he almost seems to lean on the bit on this side, the right side is soft and responsive. With quite a bit of effort he does go on to the bit, but once he has cantered for a few times, his head is up and I cannot get him to listen to me and lower his head.

Also I really need some breaks and currently he is ridden in a french snaffle daily and when hunted I think it is a mexican gag. I have considered a jointed pelham, but wondered if anyone could advise me on something they may have tried that would be a good option. Bits are expensive to keep buying - does anyone know an alternative?

This is a great forum, I have learned a lot from the comments you guys have posted so I hope you can help me now. Cheers, Rosie
 
Hello Rosie :)

What breed or type of horse is Axel?
Are his teeth, back and saddle checks up to date?

I'd advise against a jointed pelham what ever the answers to the above questions are ;)
 
welcome to NR -- it is a great forum with a wide range of people with great backgrounds and experience!

How great to have a horse like Alex to ride...
one thing to htink about -- the brakes on a horse usually improve with softness and suppleness -- so if you can play with some suppling exercises on that left side -- eg slowly building up the lateral work to get that left side soft -- and also be aware that resistance on the left side can often be a reluctance to stretch the right side -- then this will really help with other things

it is highly likely that if he is stiff on one side, that he does not yet have the right musculature developed to stay in an outline for any length of time -- his head coming up is him saying he cannot hold that position any longer - so be patient and give those muscles time to develop and strengthen...

with one of the horses I ride I spent a LOT of time doing loose rein demi volte changes of direction, focusing on getting soft bend. it took a good couple of weeks before the horse COULD do the correct bend on both reins but it did improve -- then I was able to take more of a contact and improve the bending and move to leg yields, and shoulder in, haunches in and so on to build up th e strength and suppleness behind the saddle...

as I did this his topline improved -- so I was able to start asking for outline more and more and he was bale to sustain it longer..

re brakes -- if you could tell us more about exactly when and where braking is an issue we could probably help more....

anyhow how great to have a horsey partner to enjoy again!

best

Cathy
 
Hi - thanks, I would say is more conemara x thoro bred, though not so broad in the chest region. I could post a pic, if I could manage it I guess.

I wondering about the teeth check thing myself and will have a look inside today, I should see the owner at the weekend, hopefully, so will ask her. She has been talking about his saddle because when she got him he was really fat and he has lost weight, actually still seems to be loosing weight slightly, but this we have put down now to exercise.

I agree the jointed pelham is a pants idea. Axel is very gentle and I think this would not be fair. Any thoughts about a Kimberwick?

I did think about trying him in some side reins or draw reins but guess that would be a no as well!!
 
The problem with draw reins is they force the horse to listen and assume a posture we want and tend to only work in a longitudional way, not a lateral way. This means he may be braced against them and using his muscles in exactly the way you don't want, braced, rigid and unable to flex. Using techniques like encouraging him to stretch forward, slow his rhythm, come onto a soft bend in a demi volte before leg yielding back to the track all encourage him to relax, lift through the back, carry himself better and develop his muscles and flexibility in a positive way.

Does he respond and slow in the trot when you slow your rise? You can start with slowing down the trot before doing a walk transition, walk a few strides before going back up into trot. Slowly reduce the number of walk strides until you are just bringing the trot on and back within the trot pace and not walking at all. If you can bring him back and then send him on within the trot using your rise rhythm this is a great exercise. If he doesn't listen to your half halt and slowing aids/ change in your rise speed then go back to a walk transition to show that you want slower before sending on again into trot.

Side reins, if adjusted long and used correctly, can help with longitudional flexion this but many people simply use them to crank the horses head in. They don't tend to help much with lateral flexion which is where you have the problem.

I would echo having his teeth looked at. Can he stretch evenly when you ask him to flex to each side for a treat or carrot? This might help tell you whether it's a stiffness or teeth issue.

Stronger bits can result in stronger resistances. I have used a straight bar pelham before now but always with two reins and only while re-educating a strong horse that I knew had no physical issues and a well fitting saddle.

Have you thought of trying a french link snaffle but with either fulmer or full cheek sides? This helps guide him when you use a rein aid but won't cause more discomfort if he's got teeth stuff going on.
 
if a horse is stiff on one side, then using side or draw reins will not help this.

if a horse is stiff on one side, vertical flexoin will be difficult for them

work on improving the suppleness on both sides and the vertical flexion will improve.

in order to offer collectoin a horse has to be relaxed and supple on both sides, and have the required musculature in place....

it is great you are taking time to find ways to help Axel.

how much ground work does Axel have? that can also be really useful for improving suppleness, muscle growth and encouraging a horse to use their back end more

all these things lead to better brakes as braking is more usually a training issue than a bitting issue

regards

Cathy
 
fth said:
welcome to NR -- it is a great forum with a wide range of people with great backgrounds and experience!

How great to have a horse like Alex to ride...
one thing to htink about -- the brakes on a horse usually improve with softness and suppleness -- so if you can play with some suppling exercises on that left side -- eg slowly building up the lateral work to get that left side soft -- and also be aware that resistance on the left side can often be a reluctance to stretch the right side -- then this will really help with other things

it is highly likely that if he is stiff on one side, that he does not yet have the right musculature developed to stay in an outline for any length of time -- his head coming up is him saying he cannot hold that position any longer - so be patient and give those muscles time to develop and strengthen...

with one of the horses I ride I spent a LOT of time doing loose rein demi volte changes of direction, focusing on getting soft bend. it took a good couple of weeks before the horse COULD do the correct bend on both reins but it did improve -- then I was able to take more of a contact and improve the bending and move to leg yields, and shoulder in, haunches in and so on to build up th e strength and suppleness behind the saddle...

as I did this his topline improved -- so I was able to start asking for outline more and more and he was bale to sustain it longer..

re brakes -- if you could tell us more about exactly when and where braking is an issue we could probably help more....

anyhow how great to have a horsey partner to enjoy again!

best

Cathy
Click to expand...

Thanks Cathy - good to chat and your comments are great. I have been doing 20 m circles and serpentines in the school at the trot, but I will do as you suggest with the long rein (at a walk I guess?) and try not to let him get too bored. His dressage background and responsiveness to leg aids are excellent, but my knowledge is rusty so I need to read up again about all this, but it is quite exciting to make him half pass down a country lane!

I am concerned about how strong he is and wonder if it is just my weakness at the moment. He is extremely bouncy, goes in to a cancer fairly well but iI find I just can't get him back to a trot (if I ask nicely!), though if he canters at a collected pace he then slips back to a trot on his own accord which is anoying. Bit of a mixed bag really. R
 
HeatherA said:
The problem with draw reins is they force the horse to listen and assume a posture we want and tend to only work in a longitudional way, not a lateral way. This means he may be braced against them and using his muscles in exactly the way you don't want, braced, rigid and unable to flex. Using techniques like encouraging him to stretch forward, slow his rhythm, come onto a soft bend in a demi volte before leg yielding back to the track all encourage him to relax, lift through the back, carry himself better and develop his muscles and flexibility in a positive way.

Does he respond and slow in the trot when you slow your rise? You can start with slowing down the trot before doing a walk transition, walk a few strides before going back up into trot. Slowly reduce the number of walk strides until you are just bringing the trot on and back within the trot pace and not walking at all. If you can bring him back and then send him on within the trot using your rise rhythm this is a great exercise. If he doesn't listen to your half halt and slowing aids/ change in your rise speed then go back to a walk transition to show that you want slower before sending on again into trot.

Side reins, if adjusted long and used correctly, can help with longitudional flexion this but many people simply use them to crank the horses head in. They don't tend to help much with lateral flexion which is where you have the problem.

I would echo having his teeth looked at. Can he stretch evenly when you ask him to flex to each side for a treat or carrot? This might help tell you whether it's a stiffness or teeth issue.

Stronger bits can result in stronger resistances. I have used a straight bar pelham before now but always with two reins and only while re-educating a strong horse that I knew had no physical issues and a well fitting saddle.

Have you thought of trying a french link snaffle but with either fulmer or full cheek sides? This helps guide him when you use a rein aid but won't cause more discomfort if he's got teeth stuff going on.
Click to expand...

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Thanks Heather for you time to send this info it is brill. I will experiment with the rising trot. I am sure its driver error. He is 12 and has done a lot of dressage and my knowledge is rusty on the right aids for things, but he responds very well to let aids and I believe, with minor adjustments he will come fine, though he was bred and trained by the same lady who owned him for the first 11 years of his life, so possible habits could have formed then.
 
Agree with fth.

First, if he's that stuff on one rein I'd check his back / teeth etc first.

After that, I'd see if he's generally more spooky on one side than on the other. Horses who have had most of their work done from the near side can be one sided. A bit of despooking groundwork will figure this out. eg - see what his current tolerance level for scary things (sticks / plastic bags / people doing an unexpected jump / etc) is on both sides. Don't freak him out - build it up slowly with a bit of advance & retreat.

For the suppleness - once you're happy its not a pain thing, then I'd go onto basic ground work stuff to supple up his body - there are a few ideas here: http://irishnhsociety.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=usefulinformation&action=display&thread=315

Once he is HEAPS better in terms of both confidence & suppleness on the ground, then I'd do the same work in the saddle - start off with your yields HQ & FQ, and move on from there. How to's here: http://irishnhsociety.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=usefulinformation

In terms of on the bit when riding - first, if it hasn't been done already, educate him to how to accept the bit (often the horse doesn't know this, even ridden horses): http://irishnhsociety.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=usefulinformation&action=display&thread=406

Then work, just looking for one step at a time, I wouldn't use reins to force him into holding anything.

There's a good few more schooling exercises on there as well. Always look for the quality rather than the quantity, and get your horses mind with you :)

And both of you have fun :)
 
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Hi - thanks for such great advice. Everyone has given similar comments but your links are really fab, I appreciate you spending so much time - really.

Going off on another tangent, do you know anything about elephant leaves for bedding!!

Take care, regards, Rosie
 
I have had many problems getting horses to slow down and stop over the years and until I returned to lessons I didn't realise how much my body weight and my riding position was influcing this. I had a tendancy to lean forward when I wanted to slow down, which was actually making the horse go faster as the act of leaning forward was telling the horse to go.

Before you look into changes the horses tack, I would advise that you get a good instructor to give you an honest opinion of your riding. You may be inadvertently giving your horse mixed messages like I was.
 
Hey thanks for this - a good idea but not easy to find someone in our area to achieve that. I will keep working on the schooling and maybe ask my hubby to video my riding, that would give me the chance to see axel and I working together. Take care, R
 
rosieg said:
Hey thanks for this - a good idea but not easy to find someone in our area to achieve that. I will keep working on the schooling and maybe ask my hubby to video my riding, that would give me the chance to see axel and I working together. Take care, R
Click to expand...

If you are brave enough, you could video your riding and post it on here. There are lots of people who will nicely critic your riding and let you know if they think that you are contributing towards the problem.
 
Today's progress from rosieg & axel

Hi - Thanks for all you help and suggestions. Today I have made some more discoveries and perhaps some progress today but need more expert advice from you guys now.

With loads of suggestions & things to think about, I was totally opened minded, kept the hands lighter and slightly higher. Also tried, when trotting reducing my rising trot pace and he did slow down to a gentle bob, almost on the spot and maintained that before he came back to a walk.

I have researched the bits he came with which are interesting and have looked inside his mouth - he does have a huge tongue, very long and wide, almost too big for his mouth, so this is obviously going to be an issue there and getting the right bit is critical if we are going to move forward and get him more comfortable and settled and hopefully I feel I have slightly better brakes.

Currently he is ridden in a french link eggbut snaffle for hacking, but as I said he seems to set his jaw (on the left side) and does not listen easily to aids on this rein. He shys to the left 99% of the time and when asked to bend to the left initially turns he nose.

Hunting he has been ridden a continental jointed gag (4 rings) with a single rein - which I'm certain can't be right. Plus the actual bar element is very wide. It also has rubber stops at the cheeks.

We were also given by the previous owner a 3 ring french link happy mouth gag and a 4 ring french link happy mouth gag - both bits are damaged and not usuable.

He is a gorgeous boy, very kind and gentle and so well behaved. Stop start move to the left or right at the drop of a hat. But maybe its me - but he is extremely bouncy and at the trot I feel like I'm being jetersoned out of the saddle to start with. Guess I will need to get used to that. Overall he does seem to have quite a high head carriage, so wondered if any one had any more thoughts. I did a bit of research on the net and wondered about the happy mouth (linked) pelham, or the hanging cheek french link snaffle.

More brakes needed for faster work and something that would help to get him to accept the bit more and listen for the dressage and schooling.

Thanks again.
 
rosieg said:
More brakes needed for faster work and something that would help to get him to accept the bit more and listen for the dressage and schooling.

Thanks again.
Click to expand...


Become familiar with terms such as "lateral flexion" and "give to the bit" which are basic skills needed for all horses and their owners. The best tool to teach this is a halter or snaffle bit, which are both designed to be used with "one rein".

Clinton Anderson offers some samples that can be quite helpful. This link is "horse won't stop" but I would suggest others, especially the one about "controlling horses speed". You will get a taste of "one rein riding" and what was meant when the old timers say,

"the path to a horses brain is through his feet" :)

http://www.youtube.com/user/DUHorseman#p/u/5/NVLAVNvSj8w

Simple snaffle and lateral flexion, the foundation.


Keep on, keepin on

Jack
 
Thanks, will sort out some speakers for my computer tomorrow and do that link. I appreciate your comments, Rosie
 
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