Saddlechariot training

[tazzle22]

The idea of the quick-release mechanism as an easy-to-pull 'safety cord' worries me. Surely this would act as a reinforcer for any unwanted behaviour?
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this all depends on the timoing of the release and the reward.

If the horse is having a wibbly and the release is activated, horse gets away from the sc .. then yes the behaviour may continue to be reinforced

If however one trains the horse to stand still ( 0r stop from any pace) and remain still when the quick release is activated (and even rewards horse for that) then the release is not the reward ...... as long as the reward ( treat, rub, whatever) is given before several seconds have elapsed and the vehicle then removed!

I have only just seen this .... been away a loooooooong time ........... but will comeback later as I have got to go to work now .. aarrrgggghhhhhh

 

[annareeves0]

If the horse is having a wibbly and the release is activated, horse gets away from the sc .. then yes the behaviour may continue to be reinforced

If however one trains the horse to stand still ( 0r stop from any pace) and remain still when the quick release is activated (and even rewards horse for that) then the release is not the reward ...... as long as the reward ( treat, rub, whatever) is given before several seconds have elapsed and the vehicle then removed!

Yeah, what she said It took Tazzle to drag together and express the vague thoughts about this that have been swishing round my head I need to train her out of the release being the reward.

Had another great session today (Im knackered!)

We started over in the work area - I propped the chariot on 2 cones, backed her into it and touched her sides with it and then wiggled it up and down until she relaxed about that - this took what felt like half an hour but was prob 5 mins - enough to make my arms ache anyway! Clicks and treats for that.

To break it up i left the chariot there and did some freeschooling just to give her some exercise. She's not daft - once she had started getting tired every time she got round to the chariot she stopped and went and stood in it! Definately saying lets play with this Mum, its much easier than trotting! I had to back her out and send her off again - scared of it my foot!

I led her around dragging the tyre on the tarp - much more settled as the others horses didnt chase us today. I went for the toffee tin test I used a roses tin (promise i didnt eat a whole tin of roses last night!) and put a dozen pebbles etc in and popped it in the tyre. It wasnt as rattley as I expected - a smaller tin might had moved around more and been noiser? But it was good in the fact it made random noises as it went over bumps etc. She was pretty good with this, the worst she did was walk a little (half a head) further infront of me than she is meant to but was happy to back straight up. Although she walked well, she was ears back the whole time so work to do there. We didnt 'fail' the test, but Im not convinced we 'passed' either

After that we long reined for 10 mins with me dragging the chariot behind me and she was pretty good - a little 'on her toes' but no silly behaviour.

All in all Im pretty pleased with progress - we're getting a little better every day

 

[Gimp]

I can fit my carriage in my landrover, has removeable shafts!

Its so difficult I know when you dont have lots of hands to help.. I didnt have any when I was breaking Kai in apart from the odd borrowed from the farmer or my daughter/OH

but what I would say it took me the best part of 4-6 months or so to get Kai going comfotabley to take his carriage in a safe manner. This was hindered alot my winter/lack of help but for the claims it can take 2 days from the supplier ( have I got this right) is dangerous and darn right libel in my humble opinion!

if someone with not much of a head screwed on took this as gospel... there could be all sorts of accidents!!... oh no... maybe not theres the quick release..ejection seat button !!

 

[annareeves0]

I can fit my carriage in my landrover, has removeable shafts!

Undo three bolts and the saddlechariot fits in the landrover with the back seats still up I only have to roll back the parcel shelf.

If I could be bothered to dismantle it all (maybe 4 more nuts and bolts) I could probably get the whole lot in the boot

 

[Gimp]

pah you beat me, mine is 4 bolts !!

 

[annareeves0]

To be honest I am surprised to hear you can do that. What sort of vehicle do you have?

 

[tazzle22]

Yeah, what she said It took Tazzle to drag together and express the vague thoughts about this that have been swishing round my head I need to train her out of the release being the reward.

well my pleasure ... it helps when one has studied learning methodology etc to become a teacher of adults and of people with learning difficulties . One has to think VERY carefully about timing /rewards so that we dont reward the wrong behaviour ..... just like with the horses really.

I clicker too so I can see where you are going with this on the positive reinforcement way of getting her used to the vehicle and I hope she takes to it. Its not quite how most folk introduce a horse to driving but dont let that put you off ....... as long as you take it as slow as she needs it to be rather than how fast anyone else thinks it should be !!! With Taz I dont actually know how long "it" took as we did things in stages amonst other stuff and its more a case of driving took over the riding eventually ( although its back the other way now) ... but have done it more intensively !

I need to go back and re read the thread to see if I have picked up something right..... I perceive some people are concerned there are / were some riding issues but you are now doing driving stuff. ......... I havent been on the forum for quite a long time ( periodically wean myself from the computer ) so may have picked summat up wrong.). My intial thoughts are I think there needs to be more trust in a drivng horse than a ridden horse .... the horse needs trust and listen to you , you need to observe and trust horse. Just a muse for the mo

edited to add quote from other thread ..... "is her confidence in herself and the surroundings that lets her down" .... I think that its that statement that would concern me the most along with some of the things you said about her spooking at stuff behind the hedges etc. . If a novice driver and a novice horse both have issues with confidence then I think you need to think VERY carefully about the driving overall. I am most def not trying to put you or your dreams down .... its horrid when you dont feel safe on your darling adorable horse but please please dont let simons passion ( and it IS passion for him) lull you into a false sense of security. The saddlechariot DOES have a place imo, I am def not anti it, but it is not a panacea for all the "ills" of the traditional driving world simon is so against.

From what you say on the other thread too Rosie ses not sound nearly readyto go between the shafts yet.

Please do have company when you are doing stuff like working with pretend shafts etc



you seem to be doing what I was thinking of asking you about ..... draggin other stuff....... although the biggie iI realllllllly cannot stress enough is I hope anything you attach, not just the sc , is attached with a quick release knot or shackle.. even tarp / tyre or rope can cause a lot of physical as well as psychological damage of she gets tangled up..

Long reining really needs to be spot on perfect before you do anything in the sc and as you say with pulling all sorts noisy stuff ( that does not seem to bother her aka the helicpters etc LOL).

How is she with her legs being touched ?? and all sorts things swinging around ...... I wanted to be able to do all the stuff like at the beginning of this vid


http://s17.photobucket.com/albums/b89/tazzle22/?action=view&current=Tazsvideo.flv

before thinking of harnessing up. I think that the more you can prepare before putting her to the sc the better...... continue to target it etc .

I see on the vids what you mean about her expression and ears on some of them she looks relaxed ( love her little face btw ) but on some she looks rather "unhappy" . mm Not to sure on clicking for a "happy face" .... cause if you wait for that as well as the origional action you asked for then you are not rewarding what you actually asked for at all, all you are rewarding is the ears forward. ......... unless of course she has already mastered the origional cue.

may I also comment on when you clicked and rewarded on the vids...... I know you were attending to simon and the sc as well as rosie so I dont think you were consistant enough to be actually be teaching her that day ( the camera person prompted you at one point that ??? her standing merited a click? ) ...... of course a normal session my be much clearer for her so I may be being unfair. (I dont know how much clicker training you have done).

Horse training is sure full of potential pitfalls ( I know I found most of them ..... although thanks to some luverly people giving me advice I also avoided a heck of a lot more !!!!!!!)

 

[Wally]

Tazzle22, I can see you don't work with Shetlands, if you did you'd have several on the trampoline and slide with you.

You'd be sitting in the corner not having a shot at any of the toys!

 

[Gimp]

To be honest I am surprised to hear you can do that. What sort of vehicle do you have?

Just a Robbies type one 2 Bolts for Shafts, with two on the side/strengtherns ... or I can half the length of the shafts which also works but at a struggle.. alot easier to whip the shafts of. Why are your surprised to hear that? Have known many carriages where you can whip the shafts of especially for instances like changing from a singles/pairs etc... alougth mines not quite so posh as that!!

 

[Libbyo]

I can take the shafts off both mine too.

 

[annareeves0]

My intial thoughts are I think there needs to be more trust in a drivng horse than a ridden horse .... the horse needs trust and listen to you , you need to observe and trust horse.

There are lots of things going on really. Part of the problem is I tend to 'think out loud' in post! I think sometimes it can be very confusing for others as I kind of chuck everything out there as it pops in my head rather than giving thought out reponses so you get lots of jumbled stuff and sometimes people quote me and I think 'did i really say that???'.
Rosie and I have come a million miles since I first got her and I do trust her on the ground and I believe she trusts me but just as she STILL pushes her luck with boss horse she likes to continue to push the boundaries but we do get steadily better together and she is much more willing to accept it when I say its OK. However having never been an anxious person its been a horrible shock to me to be so scared to get on a horse. I think a lot of it is about accepting i am not a good enough rider to deal with issues from horseback. If she faffs about on the ground I can correct it and move on - I cant do thatn on board and dont think I will ride again (but am OK with that).

As I am fairly new to horses I dont have that much to compare with but when I have seen others with their horses I do think, actually, we are doing OK! We have a better relationship and I have more control than many otehrs we see! I know its not about comparisons but Im happy with the way things are going.

you seem to be doing what I was thinking of asking you about ..... draggin other stuff....... although the biggie iI realllllllly cannot stress enough is I hope anything you attach, not just the sc , is attached with a quick release knot or shackle.. even tarp / tyre or rope can cause a lot of physical as well as psychological damage of she gets tangled up..
Long reining really needs to be spot on perfect before you do anything in the sc and as you say with pulling all sorts noisy stuff ( that does not seem to bother her aka the helicpters etc LOL).
How is she with her legs being touched ?? and all sorts things swinging around ...... I wanted to be able to do all the stuff like at the beginning of this vid

We try to continue with the games in amongst everything else - there is soooo much to do I get a bit swamped sometimes! I keep mixing it up to reduce the pressure and stop us getting bored and I know this slows prgress but I dont want her to see me and think 'oh no its her with that thing again'. She's pretty good with stuff like that but i struggle with life up and life down so sometimes she confuses friendly with commands - Im not a very life up person

may I also comment on when you clicked and rewarded on the vids...... I know you were attending to simon and the sc as well as rosie so I dont think you were consistant enough to be actually be teaching her that day ( the camera person prompted you at one point that ??? her standing merited a click? ) ...... of course a normal session my be much clearer for her so I may be being unfair. (I dont know how much clicker training you have done).

That day was a MESS and you've obviously picked it up! There was 3 of us (Simon, my husband on video and I) all trying to put in our bit and it just didnt work! I was concentrating on Simon and what he was saying rather than 100% on Rosie and trying not to offend anyone by telling them to shut the hell up (as much as I wanted to!!!!) but I was very releived when it was just Rosie and I !!!

I think our clicker training has evolved into something a little bizarre and I tend to click for a really good try in everyday stuff and loads when teaching something new but I am not convinced Im doing it 'by the book' - I kind of click when I feel I should - no discernable rhyme or reason to the outsider I dont really think of us as 'clicker training' anymore, we click sometimes to reinforce or target a specific. I guess I am adapting lots of little things into a Rosie and Anna style

Stupid amazon still have sent the driving book so i have no idea what everyone else is doing! Im pretty sure it doesnt look like what we are up to!

 

[AengusOg]

While you wait for your book, I can tell you that what everyone else (with the exception of your fellow charioteers) "is doing" is a million miles away from what you are doing, and does indeed look nothing like what you are up to.

I think you may get a bit of a shock when you do get your book, when you see what is actually involved in producing a driving horse.

 

[annareeves0]

While you wait for your book, I can tell you that what everyone else (with the exception of your fellow charioteers) "is doing" is a million miles away from what you are doing, and does indeed look nothing like what you are up to.

I think you may get a bit of a shock when you do get your book, when you see what is actually involved in producing a driving horse.

Thats cool - am always up for a challenge

 

[tazzle22]

Tazzle22, I can see you don't work with Shetlands

nope wally ........never had the pleasure

well apart from driving with someone with a little black shettie ( and his friend) my daughter also rode a few times

thaat ickle fella had my fearless daughter off more times than the biggies ever did ...... he would go hell for leather then put in dizzy turns on a sixpence

if you did you'd have several on the trampoline and slide with you.

You'd be sitting in the corner not having a shot at any of the toys

NO ONE gets to play on MY toys . I was a deprived child so I am having my time now

I kind of click when I feel I should - no discernable rhyme or reason to the outsider I dont really think of us as 'clicker training' anymore, we click sometimes to reinforce or target a specific. I guess I am adapting lots of little things into a Rosie and Anna style

There could be a bit of a problem is you do do this though ....... while you can meld some methods together they still need to be consistant within each other or you will end up with a confused horse that will not learn effectively .

If you click kind of when you feel you should rather than actually working out exactly what you are looking for with a clearly defined end target you may well end up with something different ...... or even dangerous ..

There SHOULD be discernable reason to any careful observer..... after all thats what your horse is and you will make it harder for Rosie to follow / learn and she may end up getting frustrated.... or switching off.

Its kinda like where you are moving her round and playing the yoyo game ....... you are using the stick high and wagging the rope but your body language / energy appears low ....... and therefore I think Rosies is too , she is slow to respond on the video.



You say you are fairly new to horses so I guess then you are on a steep learning curve and trying things to see if they work. May I suggest reading a few books on how horses learn ... .. Ben Harts book on clicker is great if a little heavy at first regarding terminology. Even if you dont want to do clisker it explains about how we all learn. .........and the main key is consistancy with any teaching / learning tool.

Whether you train driving ( or anything) traditionally or NH there is NO escape from the basic fundamentals of learning...... we may apply them differently and some ways are faster than others for some horse / human combinations , but till you (or anyone) understands it all we will do is confuse horses even more than we do already

I keep mixing it up to reduce the pressure and stop us getting bored and I know this slows prgress but I dont want her to see me and think 'oh no its her with that thing again'

.


maybe you could consider that what horses tend to need IS consistancy and in fact changing things sometimes causes more tension ...... a clicker trained horse that knows it in line for treats is usually eager to work . I think you said when you clicked her for standing by the sc she aimed for it ???? She seems to be offfering a behaviour that will get her a reward. If you reward her sometimes but not others before its established and on cue she may well give up offering ?


Groundwork is a great opportunity to work with Rosie .. ... she doesnt need to ride or drive for you both to have great fun and learn together. I suggest reading a few books or getting on a few sites to learn about learning ..... and finding out how to keep both your minds stimulated and having FUN

 

[annareeves0]

When I say I am mixing it up, I mean that I do not focus on the chariot everyday and we do different stuff like just the games over obstacles and stuff some days. We are having a Parelli phase this week as time is short as i have stuff on and i have a friend coming over for a playday tomorrow then am going to a workshop on Wednesday. I would hope that the actual training aids/prompts/style remain consistant

I started doing Parelli (after not being able to do ANYTHING with her - you are right about the learning curve, its been vertical) which worked very well for us, I got the clicker training book and was enthusiastic over that as it was 'new', but now find myself veering back towards the Parelli as the primary but backed up by a little clicker work I do need to maintain my life up though. You can tell if Im a bit ****ed off - she does everything instantly even though I dont take it out on her in any way - its just the change in my bearing.

I take your points about consistancy and not confusing her - it is something i try to do but may need to consider some more. Parelli talks about doing things 7 days in a row to establish it and we did start doing this with a structured plan for new stuff that we did consistantly for 7 days - this worked for one or two new things mixed up with everything else but if i did too many things every day, too rigidly sticking to the plan she was bored rigid. It is about finding a happy medium, enough to establish the behaviour but not to bore her rigid. She seems to enjoy new stuff regularly but I try to give her opportunites to suceed by repeating the old familiar stuff too.

 

[tazzle22]

You can tell if Im a bit ****ed off - she does everything instantly even though I dont take it out on her in any way - its just the change in my bearing.

tha aim is to get that p***ed off energy / focus without being p***ed off

its one of the main things silversand ( as well as many other good horsemanship methods do) aims to facilitate ... the finding of that place in us all, the calm assertive. Horses are such great body watchers all it takes is a slight shift for them to notice and once they have "got it" the moves become almost imperceptable. ....... although there are moments / days when a "discussion" is requered and rather more energy / body langauge needed .. when Bonney was about to go through the electric fencing last wekk I looked and sounded more like a demented chicken than calm assertive ..... and if Taz reeeeeeeeealy wants to stay in the barn eating the big hay bales where she can do so in peace from the others cause they wont come in the little door it she might try to ignore my polite request to move

Vidoes are indeed just one part, supplemented by what you say ........... and we are all keen to do the best by our horses and hate to think what we are doing might not be the best after all . I know I have evolved a huuuuuuuuuge amount and learnt fantastic things from other people ... both in the flesh and on forums like this. Some of the tips were actually potential life safers . So Most of the replies you will get will be form people wanting to help you , not criticise for the sake of it or pull you down. Some might get frustrated if you ( and others in general) seem to ignore well meant and verified safety advice (I know this from experience as I chose to drive Taz bitless and blinkerless ) but this is understandable as we all just want to help each other.

It is about finding a happy medium, enough to establish the behaviour but not to bore her rigid. She seems to enjoy new stuff regularly but I try to give her opportunites to suceed by repeating the old familiar stuff too.

definately

I would hope that the actual training aids/prompts/style remain consistant

exactly !!!! . that is why I was sayting that when you are doing clicker stuff you need to have a plan in your head ( it will need to be a little flexible as to the timing of moving between stages but still follow the plan ) and to examine very closeley the exact moment of the click for the desired activity . THAT is what must be the rigid / consistant part. so that confusion is not experienced by the horse. That when they either take longer to learn , switch off ... or mug for the treats

You can see a tiny bit of that at the end of my vid ...... we had not done the ballon busting for months , just wanted to stick it on the end of the video. I had been working a few days before with crossing her front legs so she does that first even though the cue was not there then looks for the treat even though I have not "clicked" ....... he mind was still on the most recent legs thing we were working on because I was stood in the same place ! When no click / treat came she started to think and look .......... then started to paw the ballon and busrt it....... she then got her treat


Its quite a responsibility training horses

 

[Esther.D]

My vehicle arrived on an ordinary pallet (ok it is a Shetland one but the bigger versions do too), two bolts for the shafts, two for the wheels and it is pallet sized (don't have a landrover to try it in so can't comment on that ). And thats a vehicle with a backstep. Most modern carriages dismantle right down easily for transporting on a few bolts.

Not going to add any more on the training as driving book (assuming it is one of the usual ones) will explain better than I can. I have nothing against clicker/parelli and use both myself but I do think that a good look at the traditional techniques will only be of benefit - most of the traditional stuff is done for a very good reason and is worth understanding thoroughly before choosing not to use it, if you see what I mean

 

[tazzle22]

I do think that a good look at the traditional techniques will only be of benefit - most of the traditional stuff is done for a very good reason and is worth understanding thoroughly before choosing not to use it, if you see what I mean

totally agree ......... .... even if you end up disagreeing with something you do so from a position of knowledge and evaluation of the reasons not supposition or idealism

 

[annareeves0]

Well my copy of 'breaking a horse to harness' by sallie walrond finally arrived today and I have only had a brief run through but it is not nearly as different as i expected. Im not sure what I was expecting after some of the comments but I think so far we are doing OK actually.

Half the book is taken up with lunging and long reining - yep we do both of those and our voice commands get better every day, lots of stuff about introducing bits of tack one or two items at a time until they get used to them - yep we're doing that. I will take on board comments to also canter at this stage.

Towing lines, yep, towing tyre, yep. Taking stuff a bit at a time and the time to ensure the horse is happy before we move on - yep. The other point I would take onboard is to, heaven forbid, not rush too much. To some people's eyes I do everything at snail's pace but think we will try and get each stage REALLY good before we move on. Ive been trying to avoid us getting bored or hung up on one thing so have moved on when things look 'OK' rather than great.

The traffic stuff we need to work on but Ive no real plans to go out on the road so no biggie. The actual hitching up the cart we havent got to yet and the first few walks/drives has lots of info like supporting the shafts in the initial turns etc which i thought were good. The book says nothing about getting the horse used to the cart itself so I think i may have one up there! I dont think I would do things exactly the same but will take some little snippets and good ideas.

It may not be as glossy as the book pics and I accept Im a novice but so was everyone once but actually I think Im going about things in the way that suits us best. I will take some tips and tricks from the book, but kind of feel we have the bulk of it in 'the plan'. Go team Rosie!!!

 

[annareeves0]

Quick update as a couple of people were asking.

Training has been sporadic over the xmas period, life too busy and having been to the parelli workshop and being inspired have been doing some of that, plus trying to keep Rosie fit, manage the field blah blah blah - you all understand as you're all doing the same stuff too!

I have taken on board some of the stuff from the book and have been putting the whole harness on and long reining and circling including in canter which was the bit I was omitting. We have been out of the field several times - not very far long reining but we have been working on walking in hand, which was always an issue and this is very much improved from the last time I tried (a long time as it was all a bit scary) She does try to push forward when unsure, but, and I was a bit gobsmacked and grinning ear to ear, but I told her 'back' and she did!

I have been concentrating on voice commands after working so hard NOT to speak! Walk / trot / walk long reining is really nice and smooth - sometimes I have to look to see if its happened! Too busy day dream and watching the birds - the transition used to be in your face couldnt miss it so a big improvement here.

I have had the chariot out and we have backed in and out of it umpteen times and with help have held it behind her and walked one step at a time. She is not keen on the whole idea of it moving behind her and I am researching blinkers - didnt really want to go there but need to do some investigating. She is cool dragging noisy stuff like tyre on a tarp so not sure its the noise or the sight???? I need to rig up some sort of new contraption so she is dragging something larger, that she can see behind her and see what happens.

So, its been positive, but to be honest all a bit hit and miss recently. I have a new car which makes transporting it easier as not keen on the whole towing a trailer thing and got fed up of it living on my back seats! Will continue to do bits of this and that but cant see much serious work happening until it warms up a little - by the time I ve poo picked and the 20 mins it takes her to eat her hay Im so cold I dont want to do much else!