Serious advice being sought

D

deemcmaster

New Member
Nov 3, 2007
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Hi everyone,

I am new to the board, and was looking for somewhere I might ask advice. However, please be aware, I am a professional, have been 30 years. My daughter now does the training for me. But I have a behaviour problem, that needs some serious discussion.

Recently we purchased, knowingly, a very difficult horse. My daughter is trying to get to the olympics 2012, and serious good horses with potential are hard to find, when you are not the weathiest person around. So that is the answer to why did we buy this horse. He has serious potential, serious problems.

In the two weeks we have owned him the following behaviours have occured when she has asked him to move forward from the leg into the outside hand. Or at worse case, just asked him to move forward with the belt buckle contact only. As a side note, it seems to be when he is tired, and no longer full of himself. I don't believe there are any health issues. Have thought of trying Phluphenazine, but you know that can go wrong way. Probably misspelled that...so you know...anyway... issues:

Each day a different issue:

Sat like a dog, wouldn't get up to go out of barn.
Stood like a statue and not moved. Then when moved, bucked, twisted, rearing.
Inverted, hollowed, and wouldn't rein properly.

Each day, he has gotten better. Less tantrums, more absolute gorgeous movement. She is an eventer...so everyone knows.

Well, today we took him to a new place to school. We have been told that he had done some BNH events, but I suspect that isn't the truth, as he had no clue how to use himself on jumps. Back to basics there...but what happened after we were almost done is what has me major concerned:

He stopped, wouldn't go forward, with or without contact, and twisted, turned, and fell all of 5 times. The fifth time, we went after him, hard. With the crop. I then lunged him, with a rein, untill he understood whoa, go forward. I don't think he has ever done this to previous owner, but....she may not being totally honest.

For those of you saying to yourself, why deal with this....I have worked east coast years. I have seen some really great horses, really great, that had problems.... So don't even ask... I have seen some good horses, ridden a few greats...this guy surpases them, almost all, if I get in his head.

Obvious a dangerous trait...some real suggestions? Egg's on head don't work...wives tale...pulling him over, he doesn't seem to care?

Any other?

Thanks.
 
not sure if this is a joke or troll or whatever, but sounds like a horse in pain and i'd be looking to have all the checks i could do carried out.
 
NOt a joke

NO this is not a joke. This is what happens to a horse, when someone sales a horse to a beginner, who has no business with it to make a buck. The woman we bought this horse from, has lupis, has had major health and other issues. She is a beginner event rider who was stuck with a bad horse. The horse has some seriously bad training before we got him... I have had 2 vets look at him...there seems to be no health issues.
 
Oh i have just had a brainwave. What about having an equin emassage person (cant think of the name but have one at my yard) to give this horse a massage an to help un-tense his muscles. Ok so it might not be about them having tense muscles but it could lead to helping you to the psycological side of it. I have seen many horses with problems luike this (maybe not as severe) and it has helped so much. I hope this is helpful, if not sorry!
 
massage

Hi,

I am going to try that, but I think this is more about, from expierance, he will do it for as long as "he" is willing. When he no longer wants to work...he is done. The lady, Michelle, I bought him from, put him away when he was bad...not good. Always try, for those who want to know, to get something you want before putting them away. As annoyed as my daughter ws today, he didn't get put away till he went a circle with her on.
 
deemcmaster

sidestepping the issue raised above. I am guessing from your post you are in US, although your profile does not give a location.

There is a trainer in the UK called Richard Maxwell who has done a lot of work with "last resort" horses. He did a tour recently that was about how he realised that actually a lot of what he did could be applied to "normal" horses that were simply under-performing.

Really interesting :)

But the point here was that he found he could deal with "big" issues, in small things. So for example a horse that was not very responsive to aids under saddle - you could work with that in ground work and work on submission.

I wonder whether you need to go back to first principles on this ? You say you knew this horse was difficult - what history do you have ? has he been vetted etc ? is this the only place these issues show up - or are there signs elsewhere - but smaller - that you are accepting rather than looking into ?
 
ok - so more replies while I was writing..

on a different scale, we have a native pony. Someone else who has a pony of the same breed - that pony would sit down like a dog when it had had enough.

It was an evasion. Thing is that using force with a pony or horse that has that mind set doesn't work. They just go inside themselves or get more stubborn.

Its a tough one for me. I have over 30 years of riding experience myself - but have always dealt with forward going horses rather than this type. Our pony has the potential to go that way - so it is quite a challenge for me.

I have to say - if you have this "type" of horse, do you think he has the attitude, the mind set, to compete at the level you want ? Even if you get through this crisis - will you radically change his nature ?
 
irriatating

Thanks CVB.

Yes, as you can see, had him vetted. Yes, I definetly think this is a control, submissive issue.

My thought, to this point, is to go back to some basics, but when he does act like this, cause it can be both mounted and non, is to make him go foward for a while in round pen.

As for his ability to do this...it's always a question. I have a pony, 13.2 that I just wish was bigger. He would die for my daughter.

I don't know, I just don't know. I don't know what to do. In 30 years, have had a few close to this, that we had to ask, not demand stuff from. But you knew, they could just explode. This guy, going great, then quits...Have to make it fun for him...but how...want to do it...but how.

Any other ideas?

Dee

Oh, located in Texas, from Pennsylvania though.
 
have you found *anything* he likes yet ?

Our little pony turns out to like jumping. Difficult to predict as getting her to show enough enthusiasm to approach a jump seemed like a miracle. But she *loves* loose jumping :)

Its not a breakthrough - but it helps.

Oh - and long lining/reining worked well also - but if he is liable to throw himself about that might be a bit risky !
 
too short period for finding fun

Yes, daughter and i were discussing teeth. Most TB's when pulled on, run. Training to make them run. This one flips out. So teeth are probably at least partially issue. But it's more. It's more like he thinks...and thinks and comes up with new things to try every time we ride...today he found something he could do that did worry us.

dee
 
There really is only one of two possibilities and it seems to me you need to rule each one out. It look like you covered most of the physical issues except one and that is a neurological disorder.

If there are no tumors etc then it is a training/behaviour issue. Assuming he isn't a one in a million and just a plain bad horse, then he needs to be rewired training wise. You may have to go with some tough love and push him past that barrier he set up but if good things are there on the other side when he walks through it could be the turning point.

So no specific ideas just some of my insight.
 
Hi deemcmaster,

Welcome to New Rider!

Respecting your comment of 30 yrs professional equestrian experience ,,, can't help but wonder why, if I understand what your saying correctly, this horse is being asked to work on when issues occur when "it seems to be when he is tired" ?

As one of the golden oldies around here, I was raised on & still apply the principals of finish working on a good note wishing one had asked for a minute more not five minutes less.

As to why you & yours choose to work with a known "difficult" horse - quite understandable, to me. The thrill & delight that each minutia of improvement can bring is so exilerating ,,, & as your daughter is targeting for the Olympics in 2012 ,,, you've lots of time to achieve this providing you can all figure out the best way to help the horse move forward & relax from it's past problems.

From my years of equine experience, particularly over recent times with the mare I now own, can't help but say, there's no quick fix for the problem horse inspite of the many modern theories & practices - as you say, back to basics - softly, softly catchie monkey, so to speak - work to building it's confidence in you & your daughter ,,, & when you get that moment of magic & it does what's asked of it - calll time whether it be 5 minutes into the work session or half an hour - be glad of what you've achieved & go through a nice relaxing wind down time with lots of praise & look forward to "tomorrow".

I've a friend in Scotland UK, some of whom compete at international level who helps his students with their training via videos &/or pictures, if you'd like me to put you in touch with him, please let me know & I'll send you his contact details.

Best wishes & looking forward to more news of your work with this horse.
 
Do you have warning to when your horse is about to act up at all? are there signs he has had enough?
The paint I worked with last year would be quite willing until tiered or fusterated then she would rear up and charge at me. A friend of mine who is a very good trainer helped me out by helping me find the 'warning signs'. This filly for example before the rearing and charging would get very tense in her face and the rest of her body for that matter but you could see it mostly in her face her head would get higher and higher until finally she would come at me. So In working with her the second I thought she was starting to show signs of getting fusterated I would end on what was still a good note. I may end completly or go onto a differant lessons and maybe try to go back to what we were working on later on. I didn't work with this horse long enough to know if this worked in the long run, although my friend swears by it saying that most horses since generally this behavior is out of lazyness, fusteration or pain (not to spite us or hurt us!) that by alleviating those feelings and gaining the horses trust more and more that later on you can ask a lot of your horse and it wont return to those actions.

Im sure I didn't explain it as well as he but its a new Idea.

To add to that, I personally would get rid of the 2012 'deadline' as its likely to make you rush when that is the last thing that you want to do. It can still be in the back of your head, maybe its still possible but with the problems this horse has You are probably looking at going back to the very basics with this horse for a while. Gaining his trust, figuring out exactly why he does what he does so you can help him through it. Whether its just lazyness, fustration or some sort of pain or fear.
 
thanx

Thanks for all the input, and yes, I would like some info on how to get hold of your friend in the U.K.

No he has no warning signs. Sometimes it is right at the beginning of the ride time. As I noted earlier. It seems more like when he is "done". I.E. When he has had enough, or just isn't interested in working.

The only warning we get is he stops. Dead cold stop. Won't go forward. Won't turn, just locks up, and if she pushes him through it, it's a 50/50 shot if he moves or turns vs. rears and falls.

As for olympic goals, we have another horse that is going amazingly, who is the main horse, but to reach that goal, you usually need more than one horse. We are hoping to get some local sponsorship. MOre on that as it happens.

We are going to try, tell me what you think, just putting him in side-reins and working him with moderate bit contact. IN longe lines, and in round pen for a few months. Our principle of training here is slow and steady. I think we were lied to about what level he had already done. That is the problem with the USEA, they don't record BN horse, or rider, so there is no way of knowing for sure. I just can't believe he was ever trained to jump. And you ask any contact and he will shake his head, as in 100 shakes a minute. True story. We finally got past that...daughter has good hands, and she is holding them ever so still. FYI, he is in a D ring rubber snaffle. I can't think of anything lighter than that.

I will be posting some pics of him on our website. I dunno if it is okay to tell ya'll where that is..so will put it in. www.overfencesfarm.com. Let me know what ya'll think, and if you have any other ideas, am more than willing to try just about anything, other than abuse of course.

dee
 
Firstly I would contact these people to get someone out to have a look at his teeth.
http://www.equinedentalacademy.com/

Personally, I think this horse needs to be sent to someone to get him over this behaviour, in order to make it safe for your daughter to school him.

Because it sounds as though he is frightening you both. Which is fine, some horses can be plain scarey.

I would not put hin in side reins, because if he goes up, he cant have his head to balance him.

If he was my horse, I would start from scratch on the basics, and reward him for the correct responses, and ignore the negatives. I have reschooled countless horses, and honestly most needed a bit of time. Some needed a firm but fair approach, but they all went on to have careers.
 
I agree with Casey.

However I suggest you source a 'Be Nice' halter and learn how to use it. It's not rocket science. Please see my post in 'Training of the Horse', sub 'horse rearing to dump rider'.
 
Might also be worth getting hold of an animal communicator/healer. They may be able to help the whole process go a bit easier and find out what the trigger is. Many do so via distance so not necessary to have one near you.
Other than that I'd say as long as everything physical is checked out then time, patience and love. Good luck.
 
Hi, Don't know if I can help much, but I was just wondering, how old is this horse, and is it a jointed bit? Has he had his teeth checked before?
 
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