Treeless saddle help!!!!

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parsharainbow

Guest
Ok I haven't posted on New Rider for over a year ......... but this is where I always come if I have a problem.... aren't you a trusted bunch lol ;)

This is going to be long.............



Bit of background info first: My horse is 'just' 15hh, short backed with a naturally curved spine, I am 5ft 10......... the problem??? with traditional treed saddles.... if I buy one to fit her at 16.5 I physically can't ride properly, my balance is off and I can't fit in the saddle, I'm quite long from knee to thigh, If I get one to suit me 17.5 it would be over the point of the last rib!! not good at all, anything inbetween doesn't really suit either of us but we've tried everything!!!

Soooooo now the issue...........I am trying hard not to swear ;)


My horse has had problem after problem with treed saddles, and now after a visit and a fitting from yet another a 'master saddler' who has fitted yet another problem saddle she is off work ......... I had my vet out yesterday and she has quite severe neurological damage to her spine and back end and I'm rather less than impressed to be honest!! ..... master saddler??? The stupid man has caused this.... surely he knows how to fit a saddle??? Well to be fair, my vet said she probably had an underlying problem due to previous saddles caused by her conformation, but that this latest saddle is probably the major contribution to this, the straw that broke the camel's back ........ or the Horse's back in this case :mad: He's coming back out today and I'm not really sure what to say to him. Anyway thats not helping her and is besides the point!!! Although looking on the positive side (because you have to don't you?) I think it is probably a good thing...... if she's been suffering for years with low grade pain and pressure where it shouldn't have been, I am grateful that this saddle has shown up the extent of what is going on and it can now be sorted (hopefully) :) and this would also explain why she has never been able to put on topline ...... so I now have answers :)

So I really need to get a GOOD treeless saddle that suits me and her and to repair all the damage and rebuild all the muscle that she's lost as a result, if and when she is able to come back into work. She has massive muscle atrophy to her back end where she's been unable to use herself properly, if you drew a line down the middle her front end and back end look like they belong to two different horses and she's really struggling to use her back legs at all right now ........... my vet is giving her steroid injections into her spine to reduce some of the inflamation and try and release the trapped nerve!!! She is also on box rest and IV Finadine.

I am currently thinking positive........ she has an 80% chance of being able to work again so I need to get things in place for when this happens, and of course it keeps my mind off the current situation!!

My vet suggested that if I went treeless I could get away with a slightly bigger seat because it would 'sit into her' and not put pressure on the wither and cantle area (Treed saddles have a tendancy to 'bridge' the wither to cantle area because she has a curved back, nothing inbetween is in contact with her back so they try to make it up with recommending prolite pads )- is that true do you think? I know if I tend to go to a smaller seat my weight isn't where it should be and if I go to a bigger seat the saddle doesn't fit her and its past the line of the last rib, bit of a lose/lose situation really!!

Selling her is NOT an option...... I've had her ten years, she is a trusted and valued friend and partner, if I could just get some advice on treeless saddles I think we'd both be a bit happier :)

What I'm really looking for is a treeless dressage/gp saddle that looks like a traditional saddle type, it needs to have a wither arch and a gullet and panels so that no part is in any danger of coming into contact with her spine.

So any advice or help would be greatly appreciated by me and especially her :)
 
God that was long............ sorry but there was so much to explain!!:eek:

Hope you can trawl your way through it and send some help my way :)

some photos might help

This is her hoolying around in the field you can see she has a short curved back with causes treed saddles to 'bridge' and only touch at the front and back of the saddle

a2DSCF0476.jpg

a2ngel.jpg


This was when I went to view her as a 'just broken' five year old.......
angel.jpg


hopefully you can see the reason why I'm having treed saddle problems, the tree is rigid and if the tree don't fit nothing is going to make it!!!
 
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I have a horse with a short dippy back and have trouble finding a saddle with panels to fit her, as the saddles with panels tend to be of a firmer construction, and so not so easy to shape to the back.

Sensation saddles look traditional and have a panels but they don't offer a lot in the spine clearance area, but they will shape to the back.

Fhoenix saddles sound like they might work for you, but they are of a more firm construction and didn't work for my dippy backed welsh cob.

Do you have any pics of your horses back? - just seen pics

A fhoenix might work for you as her back isn't that curved :)
 
Thanks Louki :)

I am looking at WOW's too but am not managing to get my head around the way they work....... some sites imply they are semi-treed, others a full but flexible tree??? Although having spoken to WOW themselves at Badminton they say its a full but flexible tree, wouldn't that cause the same problem?? :confused:
 
No_Angel said:
Do you have any pics of your horses back?
Click to expand...

I re-edited my second post for you :)

Phoenix don't sound like they'd work for her either having a similar conformation, she's half arab, half connemara, so typical native type back.

Let me know what you think when you've seen the photos :)
 
Who is it that makes the native pony saddles ?? they are designed for typical short & curved native backs, but cant remember for the life of me who makes them.
 
No Angel, I have just rung the Fhoenix people and they have passed my details on to a lady who will come out, she will ring me tonight and discuss the 'issue' as she can't actually be ridden at the moment, when Angel gets the all clear, she will check her out and loan me a saddle to make sure she is comfortable in it if I want and am happy with her to do so :)
 
I would recommend checking out the Star Trekk Saddles as they have the most spine clearance.
 
I have a fitter 'provisionally' booked for two weeks for the HM Fhoenix :)
So if my vet gives her the all clear I can go ahead..... fingers crossed for Friday :)
 
I have a Freeform and although it has taken a bit of tweaking I think we might be nearly there! I recently bought a Mattes treeless correction pad and the pressure relief pads that go with it (£207!!!!). the PR pads are rigid plastic and seem to almost impersonate a tree. Its a bit weird but I can definately see an improvement in Arnie since I got it. I am heavy though and they are designed to spread the weight of a heavier rider.

Like you, I am 5'9" and have a shortbacked, barely 15hh cob - although mine looks wider than yours. I cannot get a saddle to fit us both (although I live in hope for when he finally finishes growing up and out - made to measure will probably be the way to go). I want to do small jumping which also causes bother as I want a slightly more forward cut saddle - which then interferes with his shoulder.

I found with my Freeform, I have a bit more leeway. It doesnt matter quite so much if it is slightly over his shoulder as there are no points of a tree to catch him.

Its not quite my ideal saddle as I would have preferred slightly more forward cut and I got the one with the big knee rolls, which unfortunately get in the way a bit, but that was my fault, Helen at Goldfinch advised against it for me:eek: - but its very secure and he is very happy in it.

I do have a slight rubbing issue at the back but it doesnt seem to bother him at all.
 
Gosh I do sympathise with you so much. I have two horses with very similar problems to yours. One was diagnosed with Wobblers a few years ago and is still a touch neurological so we have to be very careful with saddles and the other has had horrendous back problems due to ill-fitting saddles (amongst other things) before we bought him. Several years later and he still needs treatment. I thought I was doing the best for him when I bought him HM treeless saddles but for some reason this just made it worse. All in all for both horses I've bought three HM treeless, an Ansur, two made-to-measure Cliff Barnsby's, Saddle Co saddles, Sue Carson. It really is a nightmare.

When the last Saddle Co saddle was found to be causing problems (in fact you could see the permanent indentation caused by the saddle) we started riding him bareback to rehabilitate him and allow the muscle to build up again. After six weeks I was unbelievably lucky when I found a used Kay Humphries Mondial saddle sitting in a dusty corner of my local saddlery. I took a gamble as it was such a good buy and it has been absolutely fab. I can use it on either horse but we will need to think about buying another saddle as we would like to ride them both out together.

I can't say this is going to work forever but at the moment I'm highly delighted with the results.

Sorry to hear about your problems. Sadly this is an all too common situation and it shouldn't be happening.
 
The saddle fitting course is not an automatic part of a Master Saddlers' training. Unless things have changed in the last couple of years, they can choose to take it or not. This came as a shock to me because surely learning to fit saddles should come before or alongside learning to make them. The criteria for taking the saddle fitting course is along the same lines. Equestrian experience is not necessary and I have known and heard of a few saddle fitters who have taken the course and set themselves up without having the first clue about horses perse.

Altough I can see the muscle atrophy, your horse doesn't look a particularly difficult shape and I wouldn't describe her back as "curvy" - quite normal actually. The curvyness could be accentuated by the muscle wastage and this is possibly what your saddlers have been fitting to.

Good luck on your saddle hunt but if you want some more well advised info on treeless saddles in general, it's worth joining the Yahoo Treeless Group. They're mainly USA orientated but are generally much more open minded than us UK peeps and are not adverse to trying things out for themselves. This comes from not having the SMS advising on saddle fit so they have to rely on their own experiences.
 
freeformuk said:
Altough I can see the muscle atrophy, your horse doesn't look a particularly difficult shape and I wouldn't describe her back as "curvy" - quite normal actually. The curvyness could be accentuated by the muscle wastage and this is possibly what your saddlers have been fitting to.
Click to expand...

Thank you both :):)


Matilda - in what way did the HM saddle make the problem worse??


freeformuk - this is how she looks now: she does actually have quite severe atrophy now - god only knows whats going on with these saddles but its been saddle after saddle!!!

Now the back end of her and the front end don't seem to look like the same horse :(

angelpony.jpg

and I've marked out the areas where she's lost muscle on her flanks by circling them seeing as she's grey and seems to reflect the light :p

angelpony2a.jpg
 
I think my fella looks to have a similarish back to yours, although maybe not quite so dippy? It's difficult to tell from distanced pics...this is Lances back:
feb019.jpg


I have had a lot of success with the HM fheonix, which I see you have already got a fitting for. I use a mattes correction sheepskin pad, or a lemieux pro-sorb sheepskin pad under the saddle, which both allow me to shim into to raise the saddle and level it. He needs quite a lot of shimming at the front due to muscle wastage (like yours, caused by badly fitting tree'd saddles and I too have been through a multitude of saddlers, only one of which would I use again), but I also shim on one side at the back a little as he also has asymmetric shoulders which skew any saddle to the right to a greater or lesser extent (Shimming the back right of the pad stops it moving right). This gives me the flexibility to adapt the balance and fit of the saddle as he builds up muscle, and it flexes with his short shape. I don't have the fhoenix/vogue GPT as I couldn't afford it then, but that is an option for longer legged riders too as it allows for a more forward cut and so shorter stirrup position without the larger flap blocking shoulder movement - Lance has a short back too, and I don't have hugely long thighs, but long enough to cause an issue - he can't wear treed forward cut jumping style saddles to allow me space for my leg due to also having big shoulders which get blocked by the points. Because a treeless is flexible (particularly these ones without a rigid wooden pommel) this is no longer an issue.

And to give you some hope, no matter what saddle you find (hope your girly feels better soon!), this is what lance's back looked like when I first got the fhoenix - and what it had looked like for more or less 9yrs of ridden work - he's now 12:
(photo taken march 5 09)
march5027.jpg


and just over 2 months later with use of fhoenix:
(photo taken May 13 09)
back001.jpg


Good luck with your fitting/trial. Whether you end up with a fhoenix, or any other treeless or treed saddle even, good luck; it really is a nightmare finding something to work and I hope you find one that's spot on for your horse x
 
Wow... Peaches!!! what a difference!! So does it take quite a bit of fiddling about to get the fit right?? Did you have yours 'fitted' or was it just working out where to put the padding?? Your photos have helped enormously :)
 
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