What constitutes a well bred horse ?

[BIrish]

Just interested to know what people think = well bred ?

Just wondered after a comment (no offence meant) in Tasel's thread..

I would consider well bred to mean said horse has all the correct attributes from both sire and dam.. confirmation, temperment, quality etc ..

 

[cinammontoast]

Do you mean registered/breeding or just good confirmation? Discussing this with a mate last night and saying how many OTTBs there are who have amzing bloodlines but are dire on the track and conversely, how Seabiscuit was off for slaughter and saved by someone wanting a carthorse (dunno how true that is). It all depends, as Wally said this week, what you want from a horse and the activities you will do. I'm told that cobs are c**p at dressage and not 'built' for it, yet have seen some amazing tests on cobs, for example. I'd personally never breed as even if the sire and dam perform brilliantly, you can just never tell if the offspring is going to be as good.

 

[BIrish]

I'm not saying anything.. That's what I'm interested in - what people's view of well bred is

 

[cinammontoast]

In that case, good confirmation and capable of doing the job it has without undue wear and tear. (Like I wouldn't take a cob hunting with his hairy coat on cos he's keel over and die!! Ironed yer shirt yet, girl????)

 

[Asima]

Ohhh nice one BIrish, It's a tricky one.

Good breeding, in the bloodlines sense is having a magnificent dam or sire. Don't know any other breeds bloodlines so I'll just use Arabs so Padron's Psyche or El Shaklan. But just because it is descended from these lines I wouldn't necessarily consider it well bred.

I think I would class a well bred horse as a horse who does have nice bloodlines, but also has a nice temperament, good confirmation and is suitable for what it's bred for but also sensible if you know what I mean, essentially still a horse I spose. And that has also had the best attributes from the dam and sire, something that has been selectively bred as not to have many faults.

But I do think bloodlines isn't enough. Bloodlines isn't enough to go on because even the horse that has perfect bloodlines still may not be worthy of producing from and also horses with good bloodlines, that haven't been proven just simply bred from because they have good ancestry, I wouldn't class as well bred as they haven't proven they have the attributes that made their bloodlines so valuable in the first place.

I'm not making myself very clear here, hoping you get the gist though.

 

[BIrish]

In that case, good confirmation and capable of doing the job it has without undue wear and tear. (Like I wouldn't take a cob hunting with his hairy coat on cos he's keel over and die!! Ironed yer shirt yet, girl????)

We'll clip Beau out before you hunt him.. no prob..

Ironed ? I have to find it first.. am flung on the sofa atm.. on here and testing the strengths of my percy for Sunday.. a tenner says by midnight I'll be trollied..

 

[cinammontoast]

Percy?? ***? Ain't clipping again-want him out with no fuss!

 

[BIrish]

Percy?? ***? Ain't clipping again-want him out with no fuss!

The Percy Special = Equal parts whiskey and cherry brandy.. Hedges seem smaller and I seem invincible after a couple of slugs..

Aha.. my lady - I see through your flimsy excuse to not hunt.. "sorry.. my horse is too hairy" ... er... no. Bib clip. No fuss.. not too much sweatyness..

 

[shandy84]

Well bred humm that is a tricky one, definatly more to it than good bloodlines but I do feel with good bloodlines you have a good chance of a well bred horse than one you don't know parentage of (obv flukes on both sides)

I think a* conformation
Adaptability to being a good allrounder
Good Temperament
Good Bloodline

Are all essential

 

[Tasel]

What I meant with well-bred is probably the definition of "breeding" that I have been brought up with. I come from a family where breeding animals has taken top priority in a way that it actually inflicted on family life and thus, none of my siblings nor I decided to continue the family tradition that has lasted for generations.

So... in my family, a well-bred horse would be a horse that fits the breed standard and has nice paces and "behaves" the way the breed standard specifies it to behave. In Germany, the best-bred horses are the ones that pass certain exams at the age of 3. For stallions, this is called the "Hengstleistungspruefung" (Stallion Performance Exam??) and for mares, this is the "Stutenleistungspruefung" (Mare Performance Exam??). Often, their grades at these exams determine whether they will be approved by certain breed socities which would make the foals of these horses more coveted.

Some stallions are like designer labels... a foal that hasn't done much (well, it's a foal for goodness sake) can cost a lot of money just because the sire happened to be a certain approved stallion.

Most stallions that do not pass their exam get gelded... thus, only the "best-bred" ones are really allowed to procreate... thus so many "hobby-horses" seem to have good bloodlines.

EDITED TO SAY: I know it's confusing... I am not too fussed really. In Germany, riders generally say "Auf Papiere kann man nicht reiten" ("You can't ride on papers") which generally means that only because a horse has nice breeding, it doesn't mean it is destined for greatness...

 

[BIrish]

Ohhh nice one BIrish, It's a tricky one.

But I do think bloodlines isn't enough. Bloodlines isn't enough to go on because even the horse that has perfect bloodlines still may not be worthy of producing from and also horses with good bloodlines, that haven't been proven just simply bred from because they have good ancestry, I wouldn't class as well bred as they haven't proven they have the attributes that made their bloodlines so valuable in the first place.

I'm not making myself very clear here, hoping you get the gist though.

I get what you're trying to say.. and I agree with that bit particularly..

 

[BIrish]

a well-bred horse would be a horse that fits the breed standard and has nice paces and "behaves" the way the breed standard specifies it to behave.

I'd say that was a good definition..

 

[cinammontoast]

Yuk, cherry brandy is for Grannies! I'm on red wine. Too sweaty, too hairy and that's just me! Echo Tasel, it fits the breed standard. Having said that, I note that Pedigree Chum have (finally) stopped sponsoring Crufts due to breed standards being 'beyond the pale' these days. Is anyone else finding that breeding can be too intense? I swear my Hanoverian was 'overbred': his legs were shot and he wasn't v old.

 

[RachelEvent]

To me, a well bred horse is when a good quality stallion is bred with a good quality mare, for a specific purpose.

When I say good quality, I mean of conformation which is fit for purpose, combined with a proven performance record, and a suitable temperament for the task at hand.

It is amazing how many people breed a their failure of a mare (unsound, unhinged, or both) with a quality stallion, and wonder why they get a youngster as similarly useless as the dam.

To me 'well bred' always has to be for the purpose... as you can have a well bred show cob as much as you can have a well bred racehorse, a well bred dressage horse or a well bred hunter. The absolute quality of conformation is not always as paramount as the traits of being tough, sound and willing.

For example, whoever bred Ferdie did a good job of producing an athletic allrounder who isn't a worldbeater, has some faults, but is ultimately a solid horse with a leg at each corner and a great brain. I wish I knew who his sire was... but he is the type of horse lots of people desire to have.

Whilst I am in favour of breeding being regulated more than it is, I still think their has to be an understanding that we need to breed all sorts of horses for all sorts of people and all sorts of job - so selection critera would have to be very varied!

 

[STEFF79]

We have a few "well bred" horses most arn't British bred my sister's Irish horse Crusing bred is a very sharp difficult ride but very talented I wouldn't get on it after seeing it rear vertical with my sis a few of times!! Crusing bred horses are nortorius for being difficult!!
This is her with Tony before my sis took over the ride my sis has got some lovely pic's of her but I haven't got any..
http://www.pleasureprints.co.uk/events/2008/day36/cl2foxb/pages/A36_0694.php
That pic was taken at Royal Windsor she's still a novice but won the foxhunter at hickstead on the first day..
And Fog at home after my sis got her back because the farrier bodged up her feet!! now compleatly recovered and going well for my sis unless of course she wants to take it out hacking!!

She's very sweet to do clip, groom, shoe etc just a compleate crank!!
The well bred English bred horse we have again my sister's she bred it out of her grade A mare to Unbelievable darco Shirleys 4 and jumping British novice this is her and my sis..

And this is Daddy sorry no pic's of the mare again sister has them all..

Again she's very sweet natured actually not cranky at all but getting sharper and more cocky now she knows what she's doing!!

 

[BIrish]

Yuk, cherry brandy is for Grannies! I'm on red wine. Too sweaty, too hairy and that's just me!

Cherry brandy is for grannies until you mix it with whiskey... then it becomes the Elixir Of Courage And Invincibility ... And the Miniaturiser Of Hedges ... It's true!

I note that Pedigree Chum have (finally) stopped sponsoring Crufts due to breed standards being 'beyond the pale' these days. Is anyone else finding that breeding can be too intense? .

I'm quite pleased about the Pedigree decision.. I agree that some breed standards can be deterimental.. my particular love and interest are GSD's.. but I loathe the very sloping backs of the breed standard and the problems it brings.. My beautiful wolfgirl died of CDRM.. which, some say, has it's roots in selective breeding for the sloping shape.

Some breeds of horse could be going the same way.. you only have to look at TB's.. getting faster and faster, with more "faults" as a result..

 

[Asima]

Have to disagree with RachelEvent I'm afraid, I don't think a horse should have a temperament suitable for the task at hand at all.

A good temperament should be valued above all. A change of circumstances may prevail and the horse may not be suitable any longer for what it's bred for. So say there is a highly strung competition horse that injures itself and is no longer able to be competed it will be very difficult to rehome it with such a temprement.

Agree with Shandy too ultimately they should all be bred to be reasonable allrounders. I'm all for selective breeding and breeding for a purpose but I think all horses should have the essentials whatever their bred for.That way should anything happen you won't have a misunderstood and unwanted animal on your hands.

 

[RachelEvent]

Asima, what are you trying to say?

My point is that the horse MUST have a suitable temperament. There's no point breeding racehorses that are super-duper-calm just in case they turn out to be no good at racing... that aint how to breed faster horses.

Temperament suitable for purpose - means just that. It doesn't mean you allow the breeding of horses with questionable temperaments.

Equally breeding a load of all-rounders is a completely pointless exercise too... how do you think olympic medals are won??

 

[Tasel]

To me 'well bred' always has to be for the purpose... as you can have a well bred show cob as much as you can have a well bred racehorse, a well bred dressage horse or a well bred hunter.

That can't work... you just have to look at the top horses in several disciplines for that. A lot of top SJ horses are related to dressage horses, for example... they are all kinda mixed these days. What you are talking about is how it used to be done ages ago and which is still done theoretically... but genes are just not that easy to manipulate.

The stallion Sandro Hit for example can produce high quality dressage horses as well as high quality SJ horses. Look at Anky van Grunsven's Salinero... he was bred for SJ and now he is arguably one of the best dressage horses there is!!!!

 

[Asima]

Yes but they should all essentially have good temperaments. I know a few competition horses who are sensible are also successful horses, good competition horse doesn't necessarily equal a highly strung nuttier.

My point is they don't compete forever, what then?. They should be given the best chance in life too go on past what we want them for.

Agree with BIrish again, with TB's the more selective for purpose the breeding the more faults. Is that right?. What happens after they've finished the three years of racing and their no longer fit for any purpose.

To me though a well bred horse, doesn't equal what it can win.