Working with an 'unhandled' horse

[Arora]

Hi everyone, new member here! Bit of background information before I ramble on: I'm not a new rider and I don't really consider this topic as something common to new riders (although its still possible), but I have decided to give this forum a shot as I'm assuming the attitudes here are much more educational and tolerant than other forums. (I've had a bad experience else where that really destroyed my confidence, despite having ridden for around 8 years!)
Anyway, I've come to ask for advice regarding my horse. I own a 7 year old 'unhandled' gelding who I'm doing some work with over lockdown with the hopes of getting him halter broken so I can get the farrier, vet etc out. I'm pretty sure hes never had any actual training at all, however, his previous owner was able to move him from roundpen to stable and loaded him to bring him to me (I can't remember if she got a headcollar on him or not) and also geld him, so he has obviously had minimal handling but positive or negative I don't know. He was petrified of humans but over the past couple of weeks I've done some exercises and managed to soften him up which is a huge success. He will happily come up and accept treats, he even touches me voluntarily and would 'lip' my hand or a bucket etc, basically just interacting with me and the tools positively without fear. He's much less aware of my presence, he's now happy for me to walk around and even drive a wheelbarrow around him etc. without fleeing.
I did some pressure and release exercises a couple of weeks ago which he, at first, reacted really well to! However, this is how I learnt about his issues with personal space. He seems pretty happy for me to go about my life and do activities with him as long as HE is the one approaching me. As soon as I bring a stick or any object within his personal space to attempt touch, he seems obviously distressed (ears back, guns loaded type of thing) which I want to avoid as I like how he's curious and wants to approach me a lot of the time. This makes me believe that maybe pressure and release and 'flooding' techniques are actually more likely to drive him away and feed his previous fear of humans. Yesterday, I sat in the roundpen with some treats and he became very curious, walking up to me and asking for treats, he would show interest in my hands and even sniff them and interact with me etc which was a big step and I'd like to continue in that positive way as he showed no fear and really seemed to come out of his shell.
Anyway, what I'm aiming to say here is I've noticed he reacts much better to positive reinforcement rather than negative as he just seems to be fearful due to lack of contact. I've got all the time in the world right now to work with him, so any advice that anyone can offer or similar experiences would be greatly appreciated. I'm in no rush yet but obviously there will be a time when having him caught is essential so it's very important work.
Lastly, I don't know if this is relevant here but I would just like to ask can people refrain from any negative comments? I'm really determined to give this pony a second shot. No, I'm not a professional horse trainer but I'm an experienced rider with a lot of time on my hands and if all else fails, I'm happy to pay for someone to come and help me. I'm only saying this because I was previously called every name under the sun and really lost some confidence due to responses that I got somewhere else, but I doubt that will happen here as I know this is for new riders so I'm more hopeful here.
Any advice, ideas or experiences are welcome; thank you!

 

[carthorse]

Time, patience, and calmness are your biggest assets. I think you're right when you say pressure and release and similar techniques are too much at this point. I'd carry on as you are, spending as much time around him as you can and letting him come to you. When you're around him start getting a bit closer if he's relaxed, but never in a head on way instead shoulders down, head down and move sideways to just close the distance slightly then, depending on his reaction, either stay at that distance or move away slightly again.

When he comes to you and he's happy touching you and taking a treat that's when I'd try increasing the contact a little bit. So for example if he takes a treat try stroking under his chin with your fingers and when he's happy with that stroke his nose when you move your hand away. Stop offering treats at arms length so he gets to come in closer, and maybe teach him about a bucket so you could stroke him while he eats from it. Until he's totally relaxed stay with face and neck and whatever you do don't put yourself at risk by doing too much too soon or not reading his body language.

It may be frowned upon nowadays, but an old technique was to keep them short of food so they were a bit hungry and then provide food where you were. It meant they saw people as a positive - food! - and also wanted that food badly enough that they were less likely to move away even if they were a bit unsure about why the strange human wanted to touch them!

 

[Arora]

Time, patience, and calmness are your biggest assets. I think you're right when you say pressure and release and similar techniques are too much at this point. I'd carry on as you are, spending as much time around him as you can and letting him come to you. When you're around him start getting a bit closer if he's relaxed, but never in a head on way instead shoulders down, head down and move sideways to just close the distance slightly then, depending on his reaction, either stay at that distance or move away slightly again.

When he comes to you and he's happy touching you and taking a treat that's when I'd try increasing the contact a little bit. So for example if he takes a treat try stroking under his chin with your fingers and when he's happy with that stroke his nose when you move your hand away. Stop offering treats at arms length so he gets to come in closer, and maybe teach him about a bucket so you could stroke him while he eats from it. Until he's totally relaxed stay with face and neck and whatever you do don't put yourself at risk by doing too much too soon or not reading his body language.

It may be frowned upon nowadays, but an old technique was to keep them short of food so they were a bit hungry and then provide food where you were. It meant they saw people as a positive - food! - and also wanted that food badly enough that they were less likely to move away even if they were a bit unsure about why the strange human wanted to touch them!

Hi Carthorse,thanks so much for your reply; super educational and very encouraging for me to read.
Funnily enough, there have been I believe two times where I've actually been able to edge sideways close to him in the field. Both those times I was able to touch his withers and give him a scratch and he would stand for a while until he wanted to walk off. This wasn't even part of a training session it was just a little experiment in the field. Its very rare I can do this, but still shows hope and also how he is just afraid and needs time and patience.

I did a couple of these things yesterday. He seemed to become quite confident with the treats and is very food driven! I was able to go from feeding him treats with a giraffe neck to him coming into my personal space and 'lipping' me to find more. I have actually put a bucket of food down before and had him eat from it with my arms around the rim which was super scary but eventually he didn't care and ate from the bucket.

As for food shortage, our field is pretty much grassless at the moment so him and his field mate are getting a bale of hay a day and a bowl of food in the evening but they always seem to be hungry either way so that shouldn't be an issue. He never lost interest in the treats yesterday so that was good too!

 

[newforest]

My thoughts would be to find out more about him, just from a nosey curious point of view. He hasn't got to seven without ever being handled his feet would be horrendous. So at some stage in his life he has been.

What did you ask about him before you took him on? Is he unhandled because he's been a companion and therefore had minimal handling.

I had a youngster that arrived and I took the headcollar off and it took three months to get it back on. But what I found within weeks was where his security was. I could not go him like you, he would only let me touch him when he put himself in the stable. So that is where I started everything.

 

[Arora]

My thoughts would be to find out more about him, just from a nosey curious point of view. He hasn't got to seven without ever being handled his feet would be horrendous. So at some stage in his life he has been.

What did you ask about him before you took him on? Is he unhandled because he's been a companion and therefore had minimal handling.

I had a youngster that arrived and I took the headcollar off and it took three months to get it back on. But what I found within weeks was where his security was. I could not go him like you, he would only let me touch him when he put himself in the stable. So that is where I started everything.

Hi! I was told that he was rejected by his mother as a foal and that’s why he’s so afraid etc. The lady kept him and planned to sell him at auction otherwise he was going to be sold for meat as she just couldn’t get anywhere near him unless she cornered him in a stable. I know the woman used a farrier that I don’t necessarily agree with.. He is known for being quite aggressive and forceful so I’m assuming that’s how his feet were done as she never mentioned having him sedated. I definitely know he’s had some handling, obviously either minimal or negative but I’m treating him like a clean slate at the moment just to earn trust.
Your experience sounds similar to mine. The good news is, my boy is super inquisitive, he’s very curious and you can tell he really wants to interact but he’s just afraid. I’m actually having stables put in soon so hopefully that might be an easier space to work with him in.

 

[newforest]

If you have a bottle fed horse that's a whole different kettle of fish.
Mine was as mum collapsed, he turned out OK in the end, but I didn't do it alone I got in help.

You might find the no fear no force book useful by Sarah Weston. As much as you need to be mindful of not putting on too much pressure and giving time and patience, you also need to be aware of not turning into someone who gives no leadership at all.

 

[Sparky Lily]

You may have been subjected to some blunt speaking “elsewhere”, but you were also given some good advice, pretty much as has been given here, including the recommendation of the Sarah Weston book. I can appreciate that the situation may be getting more urgent as it must be several months now since your gelding’s feet have been attended to. I assume his teeth have also not been looked at since you had him. Your post here reads as if you have only recently acquired this pony, whereas you said on the other forum that you have had him for over 6 months, albeit that he was being cared for by your parents for much of that time.
There are some very experienced people on this forum, but they will be able to target their advice better if put fully in the picture. Be upfront with what you need to achieve in the short term, and what can wait while you build up trust, and you will find people here very helpful. I hope you are able to make progress with this poor pony.

 

[carthorse]

Having found you on another forum it sounds like you've had this horse since last summer, if that's the case I would have expected you to be further on with the handling. How do you manage to get feet trimmed, teeth checked, worming done etc? Given that there is clearly a big problem and now is not the time to be taken risks I'd be ringing round trainers who specialise in this sort of problem and booking an appointment for as soon as restrictions are lifted - he needs to be handled if important care is to be given. Depending on the state of his feet and how long restrictions last you might need to get some dope that could be put in feed to take the edge off him and then a vet out to sedate so he can be trimmed and his teeth looked at (vet could do that since they'll need to be there for sedation). I'd then turn away until you can get expert help in.

 

[Huggy]

I can't add too much to the above, as I've never dealt with a completely 'unhandled' horse, but I second the general tone of everyone's replies. Time and patience and an understanding of the pretty mammoth task you have ahead of you. I've had my cob for 2 years, straight from him being a field ornament for the previous 2 years. He was well treated there, not at all neglected, or unhandled, but it took a long time for him to WANT to be touched by me. He'd tolerate but not actively look for it. I had to revise my expectations, and be glad of each little bit of progress. If you're committed to the time and effort this might take, you might be richly rewarded, but there's no guarantees. I wish you luck, and hope he responds.

 

[diplomaticandtactful]

It took us 18 months before Suze was remotely ready to try to interact with a farrier - she had no doubt been trimmed in the past but she would have been put in a crush so that she had no option but to 'tolerate'. and 4 years before she was able to work out lifting her hinds. Her feet were fine during that period, she self trimmed and had no issues. She now gives hooves on command. Things like farriers, dentists can wait until the horse can cope. I had to use sedation for Murphy as he had aladdin's slippers when he arrived and would not accept the farrier. We knocked him out completely and did a good job on them and then worked on just touching his feet, and over time he accepted having them done, his previous owner had just given up on his feet as he was such a sod to do, kicked very freely and accurately. Tolerance is different from acceptance and understanding, and you can 'enforce' tolerance sometimes but until you get acceptance and understanding, it is just papering over the cracks. The worst thing you can do is to drive expectations beyond what you are presented with on the day. Always take a step back and try to make it easier for them rather than insist on the harder thing just because you want to do it. I spent an awful lot of time sitting in a tiny square with Leo, trying to get him to understand that touching him wouldn't kill him. He was totally terrified of his own shadow and legged it rope and all if you didn't read the point where he was going into flight mode and got him doing something else to regain control/attention. The guy I worked with was typical French, the gallic shrug but he got it right - if they can't do it today, they can't. All you can do is ask for what they can do and accept that for the moment and keep trying to help them to understand. He was good at working through things when it was essential but also saying enough for now, they tried, let them rest and think it over. I interviewed a number of trainers and was put off by some of them being too rough, too fast,ie. you should be able to do this by x y or z or else. Or I thought I would find it hard to work with them as I prefer to work with someone who encourages even when you are rubbish and laughs about it than someone who seems to enjoy putting you down.

 

[Jessey]

Pressure and release shouldn't be an issue even with an unhandled horse but the pressure should be tiny to start with and your release must come before a negative reaction. If you want to scratch him your pressure may be 1 step towards him before you release (step away), then maybe 2 steps or a hand up once 1 is consistently accepted, you wouldn't go right in for a scratch as that would be overwhelming. Take things in tiny baby steps, just be sure they're in the right direction

You said you managed to scratch him in the field but that wasn't a training session, but every single interaction with your horse is a training session, he has no clue if you'd planned it or not and will learn weather you intend it or not.

 

[chunky monkey]

Hi and welcome to the forum. Just to clarify although this forum is called new rider. We are not all new riders. We are a forum from all walks of life from all over the world. Quite a few members have been keeping or around horses for over 40 years. Please feel free to join in any threads.

My first question was going to be how long have you actually had this horse. I think thats been answered by someone else for me.
I will say that a number of years ago i had a horse on loan who was a field ornament and needed bringing back into work. It wasnt till the horse came to me that we found out that he had had limited handling. My set up then was such that i couldnt cope with an uncatchable horse. After several months i did send him back to the owner. All im saying is that sometimes things dont work out. So my experience of an unhandled horse has not been a good one.
However i have experience of breaking cows in to halter training and teaching them to accept food from my hands and cuddles. Your posting about what you have done so far in terms of bucket feed offering, getting the horse into the round pen ie a confined space all resoluts with how i break the cows in. I assume that you usher the horse into the tound pen or brib him with treats to get him in. Nothing wrong with bribery. Just make sure everything you do in that round pen is a pleasant experience and you wont go wrong.
I sort of agree about letting the animal go hungry. However horses like cows need little an often. So complete starvation is not the solution. When i wean and break my calves each year to halters and food. Which i will be doing actually in a few week time. They will come off there mums and go into a shed, they will have access to hay 24hrs a day. These calves are nearly 8 months old but have had no handling at all since they were born. They have seen us everyday since last autumn as they have had hay put out all over winter and are feeding from mum and eating grass in the field. So we hen they come in they will not be getting grass or milk from mum for a while. So in effect they are being starved of there normal food. Except hay which they have been getting. At this point i introduce hard food as the alternative food source. To start with i leave a trough in the pen with food in. As they have never eaten hard food it takes several days to grt them use to food. I put in more morning and night. Once they learn that i am there food source. I then delay putting it into the trough and offer the food to them first directly from the bucket. If i have to i put the bucket on the floor take a step back till they get there head in then step forward. They like you have done start to hold the bucket for them to eat out of. Then gradually at each fed start to touch them down the neck with strokes whilst they eat. If they lift there head and back off just take a step back let them get there head in the food and then attempt another stroke. Gradually the time touching getting longer. The food becomes so inviting they cant resist it. What you describe you are doing with yours is exactly what i do with the cows. So i would keep it up. The next step for introducing halters is then just using a lead rope and dropping it over the top of the neck. They will run to start with and charge round the pen, the lead will drop on the floor as they buck it off, but the food temptation brings them back, i pick up the rope and try again. Slowly they will accept the lead and after a few days they stop panicking when it drops over the neck. Then i start to slowly gather the ends up round the neck, starting to get them use to the feel of a rope pulling round, maybe getting tighter. Me pulling a bit on the neck. As soon as they start to panick let go of the rope. Never hold on which distresses the animal. A few days of that they get use to it. After that you slowly start to introduce the halter. I put it in the food bucket with the nose as open as i can get, then slowly start pulling it up as they eat from the bucket. They will immediately pull there head up from the food. Just go back to waiting patiently for them to put the head in and try again. Each day as they get comfortably with the feel round the nose you will get further and further on.

I hope this is the sort of advice you were looking for. You say the horse responds to postitive reinforcement and so they should. Use your food as the key to the reinforcement initially and help build up the trust. Once they trust you you can slowly withdraw the bribs. Dont let the horse just have food from a bucket everyday without trying to give some scratch or lead rope training etc first if possible. If you are not going to train that day dont give bucket food. Just maybe offer from the hand a few treats. It might sound stupid me using my cows as the example but it really is the same if you were training a stray dog, or befriending a stray cat. I have befriended a stray cat over the last year. Again using the food as the bribery. Its taken a year from being completely wild to now coming in the house. He will sleep on my bed etc.

 

[newforest]

As someone mentioned another forum I went and read those threads as well.

The first thing I would do if you haven't already done so, regardless of your set up is make a catching pen by the gate. That's an asap suggestion.
This isnt at this time to catch him, corner him or do anything with him.
If, God forbid your gate comes open for whatever reason, he's gone. Nobody is going to be able to get near them to catch. You haven't said how big they are, but a scared pony any size will plough through people and gates.

Get a shelter put up. It doesn't need to be anything special, just safe and serve the purpose. Over the years I have known some pretty weird shelters.

Sadly if mum rejected him, she may have done that because there is something wrong with him. If I read it right you are the third owner, and neither of them have educated him in the very basics. To be caught and to lead. I remember being a third owner and watching what I did lead out of the stable bugger off up the field. I bought them and took the headcollar off and watched my money gallop off.

If you decide to work with this pony be prepared for the longhaul. Just because you are human and they are a horse, doesn't mean they will, trust isn't free, you earn it.
His response to you with pressure is to leave. That's similar to your behaviour. You couldn't cope with the comments on the other forum so you left. It knocked your confidence, so in a weird way, you know how he feels if you knock his.