Zak being a monkey.... UPDATE

I've been away for a few days and Zak has had 4 days off. So if he was sore from being ridden much more from behind and into a contact than he us used to then that should have eased by now.

So today I lunged him in a head-collar and discovered that he drops his head both on the transition to canter and during canter on the left rein only. He also rushes on the left rein.

I then put a saddle & bridle with loose-ish side reins on him and he was even worse suggesting that restricting his head at all just makes him struggle more with whatever it is he's struggling with. Then I rode and maintained a gentle contact and he did not drop his head. Then daughter rode including a canter transition and again he did not drop his head. Then I hacked out briefly in walk and allowed him to choose a rein length and his nose was almost to the floor.

So conclusions!

He is NOT trying to offload little riders. In fact he kept his head up more under saddle suggesting he actually tries to do the right thing for his rider most of the time.

The rushing and the problems with transitions suggests a balance issue.

The nose to floor suggests his neck is stiff and he wants to stretch it.

So basically I still don't know but I do now believe it is a physical issue and not a behavioural one. Any other thoughts from what I have described?

I have rejected the thought of the daisy reins. If he is struggling physically the last thing I want to do is restrict him further. But I did wonder about lunging in side reins a few minutes at at a time to help him build his neck muscles a little so he doesn't find it so hard to hold himself in some degree of collection.
 
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Yes I've got the saddle fitter on Monday and then a follow up appointment with the physio.

He is not showing any obvious pain anywhere and he's certainly sound. But he does have this head dropping thing going on which many people might just 'fix' with a daisy rein as RI suggests. But I want to understand it and sort it out properly.
 
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I wouldnt do a quick fix because it doesnt look at why.
It's sounding muscular and the need to stretch the back. Mine will drop the nose to the floor trotting on the lunge to stretch down if she needs to.
I stretch and I wouldn't want someone tying my arms in to stop me.
 
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Oh I'm so glad you have found something to try to explain his behaviour and follow up on. I didn't know what a daisy chain was when it was first mentioned in the thread so I googled it and I thought it was really unpleasant, I'm so so glad you don't need to take that route with Zak.
I can't offer any advice except to say that you're heading towards a proper solution IMO:)
 
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Jess puts her head down and forward if she gets sore in her back... Normally saddle related in her case (she can muscle out of a saddle in 6-8 weeks when she first starts working harder after winter), hopefully you can get to the bottom of it quickly.
 
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Get a physio or vet to look at him. I'd start some gentle carrot stretches and use that to help ease him off. I was given stretches for Kia from an EBW that help him a lot with his stiffness.
 
I would go with physio before even getting on again. If my boys feel off i call my physio and move my appointment to earlier. If his muscles are tight and sore which you have described riding no matter how gently will make them worse.

Carrot stretch until physio can get there.
 
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KP nut said:
He's going so much better (apart from the head dropping obviously!) since I've been schooling him. He is far more responsive and he's learning to carry himself better which might be hard for him now but will help in the long run. So yes I'd like to carry on. Plus I love it!

He's ridden twice some days because I can get the school early in the morning and then the girls ride after school. I did feel guilty and then I told myself to man up! All RS or trekking ponies ride more than once. Plus horses at comps warm up then ride different classes. At pony club camp or training clinics you ride several times etc. So I figured he'd survive!!
Click to expand...

True but quite a lot of the RS ponies I know of have tricks for dumping their rider or getting out of work! I've been dumped by RS horses a few times myself! It may just be that he's objecting to being ridden so much after a life of leisure (I don't know what he did before but am assuming he does more now.) I guess the thing to do is rule out the usual tack/teeth/back stuff and if it's not that, then he's just being a mischievous pony! Let's face it, they all have tricks and their little moments. Mine bucks when she's had enough of me bossing her about!

ETA - just seen your last post! I would get a physio out too and let them advise.
 
Another update.

Girls had a lesson yesterday. I wasn't sure if I should be riding Zak so I spoke to my RI about my worries. She said let them ride him in the lesson and see how he goes: he was foot perfect all lesson for twin 1 and RI said he seemed absolutely fine. Moving freely and willingly. Then the saddle fitter came and he has changed shape totally - all in a good way. Built up where he is meant to be and leaner where he is meant to be. Also he is now level whereas there was a good inch difference between left and right at the back before - a sign he was not using his left hind properly which has now been corrected. She had a good prod around his neck and back and could find no soreness at all. The saddle has been adjusted and feels much better (though I'm still not a fan. See separate thread!)

Then I had a private lesson with another RI who was teaching on 2 occasions when the girls fell off. She says I am making too much of what he did: there was no malice in it, he was just stretching down or re-balancing himself and they don;t have the strength or balance to stop him or stay on. She also said he uses his head as a sort of rudder, especially in canter, but that over time he will sort it out himself, Basically I am working him in a way that he just isn't used to and he is finding it hard. He is not used to working into a contact, and he had no concept of lateral work, so me insisting he uses his back end, and flexes and bends, steps under etc is really hard for him.

We then had a lesson and he was fantastic. Really using himself properly. But you could hear him grunting at times when I was spiralling in and leg yielding out on a circle which RI said was him literally saying 'oof god this is hard work!' We gave him regular breaks and he stretched right down each time which she said was good. He only took the rein when I offered it though. Other RI wants me to keep him on a contact and only let him stretch down at the end or he will start snatching the rein more and more during work. Whereas this RI likes him to stretch while working. I prefer the latter option but the former might be safer if I need to consider the twins. Any thoughts on that?

Neither of the 2 RIs nor saddle fitter thinks he needs the physio or that there is anything much to worry about.
 
Good he is muscling up better/evenly now :D it sounds like he is likely to keep changing for the summer.

My osteo says to let them stretch every 10 mins or so if they are not used to working in a frame as circulation gets compromised after that time which inhibits development, after 45mins of holding a stress position I'd be screaming ;) I would teach a stretch aid/command so that he only does it on invitation and not when he feels like it so the kids aren't at risk of being hoicked off again :D
 
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I think they could probably learn. The problem with them is they often ride on washing line reins anyway so he thinks he can have as much as he wants whenever he wants!
 
I think he can learn that he shouldn't snatch with the twins.

I wondered whether the saddle might be pinching his shoulders? He is going to change shape a lot and pretty quickly I think :)
 
Good news that it's not physical, that's one less thing to worry about. Although saying that, sometimes physical causes are easier to sort out than training issues!
Regarding the two RIs and the stretching, personally I would agree with the one who said to give him stretch breaks. I don't think it's fair to keep him in an outline for an entire session with no breaks when he finds it so physically challenging. Humans who are just getting used to more challenging exercise need to take breaks and it's the same for horses. And personally even when a horse is physically capable of working the whole time I don't think they should have to - maybe if they're really fit, supple and balanced they don't "need" a break but I feel that letting them have a quick stretch is a nice reward for a period of good work. He doesn't have to learn that being given his head means he's allowed to snatch - if you offer him the chance to stretch and he snatches at the bit or yanks the reins away from you, just pick up your contact again and work him for another minute or two, before offering another one... he'll learn soon enough.
 
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Imo i would still get a physio. You have taken a unfit in muscled pony brought it in to daily work and changed it shape. The saddler is not a physio and a feel all over for soreness is not a professional opinion.

Any small issues now can be dealt with before they get bigger and if no issues are found even better.

As for stretching i always allow a few breaks but these are working breaks were he does a nice free walk on a long rein before i carry on
 
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