Congratulations Esther.D and Ollopy Backwards!
- Thread starter Wally
- Start date
Congrats Esther.D!
Sorry to hear that not all competition drivers are as accident aware as the majority of horse owners everywhere but I have seen some sights at the horse fairs and the 'dealers' selling their drivers (which have only been in the cart the day before and left to let rip).
One idea I have had is would any of you be willing to actually do a photo shoot of how to harness correctly, how to put your horse in the cart correctly and how to drive safely?
Or perhaps its already been done and I haven't seen it? I know it is in books, i have the majority of them at home but I do think that the piccies you posted Wally were very good and you could point out what was wrong in the one piccie and then show how is should be in the next piccie?
Just a thought, find it very interesting. And my new webbing harness came yesterday and hoping to try it on Gabrielle this weekend (or even tonight if I have time)
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Sorry to hear that not all competition drivers are as accident aware as the majority of horse owners everywhere but I have seen some sights at the horse fairs and the 'dealers' selling their drivers (which have only been in the cart the day before and left to let rip).
One idea I have had is would any of you be willing to actually do a photo shoot of how to harness correctly, how to put your horse in the cart correctly and how to drive safely?
Or perhaps its already been done and I haven't seen it? I know it is in books, i have the majority of them at home but I do think that the piccies you posted Wally were very good and you could point out what was wrong in the one piccie and then show how is should be in the next piccie?
Just a thought, find it very interesting. And my new webbing harness came yesterday and hoping to try it on Gabrielle this weekend (or even tonight if I have time)
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Wally tried to correct one set of them (the ones with the too short shafts) for their safety but nothing was done. Wally also spoke to the ring steward, and nothing was done, she has also tried to set up a driving club that started with going through correct harnessing etc but that didn't get anywhere either- they just do not seem to be appreciating how dangerous bad harnessing can be.
Do you mean a photo shoot for NR, or generally? Generally there are books, as you mention, and DVDs/videos etc with it all on but I suspect they do not own them.
I really want to see it sorted as there were some lovely ponies out there and some pretty good driving, it was the harnessing and vehicle size/balance that was letting them down.
Do you mean a photo shoot for NR, or generally? Generally there are books, as you mention, and DVDs/videos etc with it all on but I suspect they do not own them.
I really want to see it sorted as there were some lovely ponies out there and some pretty good driving, it was the harnessing and vehicle size/balance that was letting them down.
Thanks Esther.D
Yes I think for NR would be the best idea. I know I would love to see how everyone does it and you could also ask people to post thier pics of thier horses in harness and how they were taught to do it and if things work or don't work?
What do you think?
I don't mind if its not a good idea but I know that I for one would be very interested as there are not a lot of driving people around where I am and although you see the pics in books it is better where you can ask a question about a specific thing - perhaps in a piccie and then get a direct answer from the person doing it.
Yes I think for NR would be the best idea. I know I would love to see how everyone does it and you could also ask people to post thier pics of thier horses in harness and how they were taught to do it and if things work or don't work?
What do you think?
I don't mind if its not a good idea but I know that I for one would be very interested as there are not a lot of driving people around where I am and although you see the pics in books it is better where you can ask a question about a specific thing - perhaps in a piccie and then get a direct answer from the person doing it.
That's not a bad idea. A picture says so much more than trying to explain something in words.
Okay here's Esther.d Driving our Jackson Pillock at the RHS.
Note the big buckle that holds the loop the shafts go through, it's in the middle of the pad, where it should be, the pad protects the horse from the buckle. There is a brass plate on the shaft where it runs through the tug, on this plate is a small peg that sticks out to the side, sometimes it's under the shaft, this is the tug stop and when the buckle is in the middle of the pad and the horse is pulling on the flat, this little peg should be hard up against the back of the tug loop.
The tips of the shaft come no father forward than this manly chest.
The shafts and the floor of the vehicle are level, and the shafts come roughly half way up the ponies sides. Jackson's are a tad high because he's such a short arse! But nothing dangerous.
Look under the shaft and you'll see a little loop just in front of his hip, nest to it is another loop on the side of the shaft. These are the breeching Ds which are your brakes. You choose whether you use the undershaft breeching D or the one on the side, in this case we have used the undershaft one as it keeps the clutter down on the shaft itself. Note the breeching, close in resting on the horses quarters, if he was pulling on the flat or uphill you should get no more than 4 fingers between him and the breeching.
The breeching seat is about mid way between the top of his tail and his hock, horizontal neither flopping down or riding up.
On this cart there is another D on the shaft nearer the pony's bum, just level with his tail. This one is for a FALSE breeching, you never attach the horse's harness to these. This is for a leather strap, on offset squares to be slung between the shafts. This is only for showing on lawns, or show drives on very flat land, you take off the breeching on the horse and rely on the false breeching slung between the shafts to stop the vehicle. Not advisable on this turnout as the pony is so small and the false breeching would not come in the optimum place.
You can see the collar height here, above the point of his shoulder, but not digging into his windpipe. Tug in the middle of the pad, tug stop hard against the tug.
Now, here, to perfect the fit of the harness the traces could do with being a hole shorter. The tug buckle has swung to the back edge of the pad, still within acceptable limits. But if we did make the traces shorter, we might have to let the breeching out a hole, it all has to balance itself up.
Okay here's Esther.d Driving our Jackson Pillock at the RHS.
Note the big buckle that holds the loop the shafts go through, it's in the middle of the pad, where it should be, the pad protects the horse from the buckle. There is a brass plate on the shaft where it runs through the tug, on this plate is a small peg that sticks out to the side, sometimes it's under the shaft, this is the tug stop and when the buckle is in the middle of the pad and the horse is pulling on the flat, this little peg should be hard up against the back of the tug loop.
The tips of the shaft come no father forward than this manly chest.
The shafts and the floor of the vehicle are level, and the shafts come roughly half way up the ponies sides. Jackson's are a tad high because he's such a short arse! But nothing dangerous.
Look under the shaft and you'll see a little loop just in front of his hip, nest to it is another loop on the side of the shaft. These are the breeching Ds which are your brakes. You choose whether you use the undershaft breeching D or the one on the side, in this case we have used the undershaft one as it keeps the clutter down on the shaft itself. Note the breeching, close in resting on the horses quarters, if he was pulling on the flat or uphill you should get no more than 4 fingers between him and the breeching.
The breeching seat is about mid way between the top of his tail and his hock, horizontal neither flopping down or riding up.
On this cart there is another D on the shaft nearer the pony's bum, just level with his tail. This one is for a FALSE breeching, you never attach the horse's harness to these. This is for a leather strap, on offset squares to be slung between the shafts. This is only for showing on lawns, or show drives on very flat land, you take off the breeching on the horse and rely on the false breeching slung between the shafts to stop the vehicle. Not advisable on this turnout as the pony is so small and the false breeching would not come in the optimum place.
You can see the collar height here, above the point of his shoulder, but not digging into his windpipe. Tug in the middle of the pad, tug stop hard against the tug.
Now, here, to perfect the fit of the harness the traces could do with being a hole shorter. The tug buckle has swung to the back edge of the pad, still within acceptable limits. But if we did make the traces shorter, we might have to let the breeching out a hole, it all has to balance itself up.
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Those pictures are scary It certainly says something for the ponies that they can work like that. I can see the plus point in that they're not having to put up with it every day, but to think the last time they did this was probably 12 months ago is about as bad!
Why are they allowed to show like that though? As long as they are, they won't see any reason to change anything.
It certainly says something for the ponies that they can work like that. I can see the plus point in that they're not having to put up with it every day, but to think the last time they did this was probably 12 months ago is about as bad!Why are they allowed to show like that though? As long as they are, they won't see any reason to change anything.
Thanks Wally - I knew you would rise to the occasion and so well too!
Absolutely fantastic the instructions and the piccies! I have learnt alot as I am sure a lot of other people have too.
Just for your info I am actually breaking Gabrielle to harrow and roll our fields - whereby as a working horse she HAS to have a stable in my new barn!
Would the harness be fitted any differently to that of a horse pulling a carriage/trap?
Absolutely fantastic the instructions and the piccies! I have learnt alot as I am sure a lot of other people have too.
Just for your info I am actually breaking Gabrielle to harrow and roll our fields - whereby as a working horse she HAS to have a stable in my new barn!
Would the harness be fitted any differently to that of a horse pulling a carriage/trap?
Yes I have actually bought two metal shafts and have thought of welding/attaching to the roller so that they/we have more control steering, etc.
Does the harness sit any differently any where else though? Sorry to pick your brains but want to do this properly.
Does the harness sit any differently any where else though? Sorry to pick your brains but want to do this properly.
Are you using a heavy horse saddle or just a roller?
I know very little about heavy gear, Bertie in IHDG (www.montyroberts.co.uk, discussion group) does a lot of ploughing and stuff, ask her, she knows all about rigging heavy horse stuff, I am trained under the Light Harness Horse Training Board which only covers things from Shetlands in governess carts to road coaches!
Common sense would suggest the same principles apply, you need to get a balance between the draught and the brakes.
I know with breast harness on carriages, if the point of draught is too low it will cause the top of the collar to tip into the windpipe, a full collar is better for things towed from low down.
I know very little about heavy gear, Bertie in IHDG (www.montyroberts.co.uk, discussion group) does a lot of ploughing and stuff, ask her, she knows all about rigging heavy horse stuff, I am trained under the Light Harness Horse Training Board which only covers things from Shetlands in governess carts to road coaches!
Common sense would suggest the same principles apply, you need to get a balance between the draught and the brakes.
I know with breast harness on carriages, if the point of draught is too low it will cause the top of the collar to tip into the windpipe, a full collar is better for things towed from low down.
bertie will indeed know far more about the heavy horse stuff so the best person to ask.
we did harrowing for several years and always used a full collar ..... the lower position of the traces did indeed pull the breast collar out of alignment .... I must see if it will do the same with the empathy collar that Taz now wears - although I still think it will be suspect ( havent harrowed in several years.)
just another couple pics for comparisons ....
this is one of the drivers at our driving trials group and its handy as its a lighter colour pony to see the harness against.
I would be interested in your opinion on this wally .... I have lots pics I have taken of 4 wheel vehicles but I dont drive one. I nearly always have the feeling that the traces are pulling too low and not in the line of the collar ......... this one is sorta half way and once person I admire has her traces higher ... loads more have far lower so the line of draft of the traces follows out in a line over the withers ! ( I am trying to cop pics of this at the mo to edit out faces LOL) . With full / empathy collars it doesnt look so out of line to me but I would like to discuss this and learn
It also shows a different sort of shaft as a bounus !
I was taught to have line of draft this high .... does this apply to two wheelers more then ?
not the best of angles to actually see the corect line of the vehicle as I am obviosuly "on a hill" coming out of the water and Taz is slightly flatter !
this is an empathy collar for those not having seen one...
Taz usually has a far lower head carriage than this and has quite a shallow chest. a collar like htis gives her shoulder more room to move while not interfering with her heqad carriage
and just for a laugh ..... what else not to have a part of your harness when in a showring ... good old baler twine
we did harrowing for several years and always used a full collar ..... the lower position of the traces did indeed pull the breast collar out of alignment .... I must see if it will do the same with the empathy collar that Taz now wears - although I still think it will be suspect
( havent harrowed in several years.)just another couple pics for comparisons ....
this is one of the drivers at our driving trials group and its handy as its a lighter colour pony to see the harness against.
I would be interested in your opinion on this wally .... I have lots pics I have taken of 4 wheel vehicles but I dont drive one. I nearly always have the feeling that the traces are pulling too low and not in the line of the collar ......... this one is sorta half way and once person I admire has her traces higher ... loads more have far lower so the line of draft of the traces follows out in a line over the withers ! ( I am trying to cop pics of this at the mo to edit out faces LOL) . With full / empathy collars it doesnt look so out of line to me but I would like to discuss this and learn
It also shows a different sort of shaft as a bounus !
I was taught to have line of draft this high .... does this apply to two wheelers more then ?
not the best of angles to actually see the corect line of the vehicle as I am obviosuly "on a hill" coming out of the water and Taz is slightly flatter !
this is an empathy collar for those not having seen one...
Taz usually has a far lower head carriage than this and has quite a shallow chest. a collar like htis gives her shoulder more room to move while not interfering with her heqad carriage
and just for a laugh ..... what else not to have a part of your harness when in a showring ... good old baler twine
If you look at a lot of 4 wheelers they do seem to have a very low draught point.
Trace carriers are a must with them.
On Jane MaInnes' DVD on pairs to 4 wheelers she discusses this, and it seems the opinion is that as long as the line of draught is not spoiled, ie is straight and uninterupted by other bits of harness pulling the traces up or down, so long as the breast collar is not tipping so the top edge is diggin in that's fine.
On Jackson's little vehicle we have a very nice line of draught.
The issue is the top edge of the collar, not so much the line of draught not being level with the collar. It's a fine line though,.... when does the pressure build up and at what point does the collar start to tip??? Full collars are not so much of an issue.
BTW, It does my heart good to see well fitting harness and ponies with a happy face on.
Trace carriers are a must with them.
On Jane MaInnes' DVD on pairs to 4 wheelers she discusses this, and it seems the opinion is that as long as the line of draught is not spoiled, ie is straight and uninterupted by other bits of harness pulling the traces up or down, so long as the breast collar is not tipping so the top edge is diggin in that's fine.
On Jackson's little vehicle we have a very nice line of draught.
The issue is the top edge of the collar, not so much the line of draught not being level with the collar. It's a fine line though,.... when does the pressure build up and at what point does the collar start to tip??? Full collars are not so much of an issue.
BTW, It does my heart good to see well fitting harness and ponies with a happy face on.
On that photo of the grey, the breeching looks wrong to me - not level and too small. Is it because of how the pony is moving when the photo was taken or is it not right?
This vehicle has quite a low splinter bar, but the horses have never come in with any kind of rough hair under the collar or rubs.
This is Janes pair of Orlovs that I borrowed for my intermediate exam, put to a Spider Phaeton, the proportions are about the same for the Shetlands as for them. a reasonably low swingletree, but nothing drastic to cause the collars to flip.
And again, about the same set up, but I am winging it and not using trace carriers!
This is Janes pair of Orlovs that I borrowed for my intermediate exam, put to a Spider Phaeton, the proportions are about the same for the Shetlands as for them. a reasonably low swingletree, but nothing drastic to cause the collars to flip.
And again, about the same set up, but I am winging it and not using trace carriers!
thanks wally
it was the issue of the breast collar riding up and taking the weight up onto the lower neck that concerned me........ I have now looked closer at the pics I have and on several the collar appears held by the false martingale or just not pulled out of shape
although on some occasions there appears too much wieght on the neck straps holding the breastcollar . on one so much you can see an indent ! ... sometimes too , more on the lighter webbing harnesses the breast strap appears to be "bending".
I shall have to diable my current picture viewer as its saving pics with a file extension I cant upload ..... *%+*& computers
it was the issue of the breast collar riding up and taking the weight up onto the lower neck that concerned me........ I have now looked closer at the pics I have and on several the collar appears held by the false martingale or just not pulled out of shape
although on some occasions there appears too much wieght on the neck straps holding the breastcollar . on one so much you can see an indent ! ... sometimes too , more on the lighter webbing harnesses the breast strap appears to be "bending".
I shall have to diable my current picture viewer as its saving pics with a file extension I cant upload ..... *%+*& computers
Thisi s fantastic!
What is a swingle?
I used to work for David Broomes Father who had 16.2hh Palominos for weddings and they had collar harness - beautiful. But I never had to fit it!
I put the harness on Gabrielle yesterday and she looked good I did initially think the breeching was a bit high but looking at the piccies it seems okay but will post a piccie this weekend to get your thoughts.
Anyway, Gabby thought it was fantastic and really wanted to canter in her harness! I did about 10-15 mins just driving her in the harness and then had a friend hold onto the traces (extended by that ever loveable Baling twine!) and lean back so that Gabby had to pull her! Gabby looked back and sort of expressed ' ok thats what you want me to do?' ( I put her in her normal bridle with no blinkers and French link bit) She was fantastic - friend was a little tired after 10 mins but very impressed with how little effort Gabby put into pulling her up a hill
I hope to do the same on Saturday and possibly introduce a tire - what do you think?
What is a swingle?
I used to work for David Broomes Father who had 16.2hh Palominos for weddings and they had collar harness - beautiful. But I never had to fit it!
I put the harness on Gabrielle yesterday and she looked good
I did initially think the breeching was a bit high but looking at the piccies it seems okay but will post a piccie this weekend to get your thoughts.Anyway, Gabby thought it was fantastic and really wanted to canter in her harness! I did about 10-15 mins just driving her in the harness and then had a friend hold onto the traces (extended by that ever loveable Baling twine!) and lean back so that Gabby had to pull her! Gabby looked back and sort of expressed ' ok thats what you want me to do?' ( I put her in her normal bridle with no blinkers and French link bit) She was fantastic - friend was a little tired after 10 mins but very impressed with how little effort Gabby put into pulling her up a hill
I hope to do the same on Saturday and possibly introduce a tire - what do you think?
I am at present training her in a roller. Do you think she would need a heavy horse saddle?
Work at the speed the horse wants to, there's no point spending 12 months training a horse you could get going in 6 weeks, but don't get over confident............like our overseas student! The little chap we are training atm is going really well, he's trotting large circles and doing a step of rein back after 2 weeks, so far nothing has gone wrong, and our student was getting very confident, but I told her not to be so bold as it often can go pearshaped just after you relax and think you've cracked it.
Well, yesterday I was bourne out, we had just done a cracking little schooling session, and had just said, that's that, time to pack up on a good note, when for no reason at all he did a big buck, kicked the vehicle and scared himself, we did several circuits in panic and I calmed him down and then had to to another couple of circuits to convince him he was okay. Had I had him in a more advanced situation like on the road there could have been a nasty accident.
So my advice is always expect the unexpected even if the horse has been as cool as a cucumber. But don't be afraid to progress a horse as fast as he's comfy with, but then back off for a long time while you get miles under his belt.
If you were using full collar harness you'd have no need for a swingletree, but using breast collar you must have them. With most modern vehicles you will have both roller bolts to attach collared horses to, or fixed trace hooks on a 2 wheeler, but they also have swingletrees for collared harness. The swingle trees rock forwards and backwards to accomodate the horse's shoulders moving forwards and back, if you attached them to fixed points the poor horse would get sore shoulders as he worked in collars that were static. Full collars are up on the shoulders and won't rub.
On the photo of the bay pair, have a look by their tails, you'll see the traces attached to two horizontal bars which swing, and above them there are two little mushrooms, those are for collars.
The little chap we are training atm is going really well, he's trotting large circles and doing a step of rein back after 2 weeks, so far nothing has gone wrong, and our student was getting very confident, but I told her not to be so bold as it often can go pearshaped just after you relax and think you've cracked it. Well, yesterday I was bourne out, we had just done a cracking little schooling session, and had just said, that's that, time to pack up on a good note, when for no reason at all he did a big buck, kicked the vehicle and scared himself, we did several circuits in panic and I calmed him down and then had to to another couple of circuits to convince him he was okay. Had I had him in a more advanced situation like on the road there could have been a nasty accident.
So my advice is always expect the unexpected even if the horse has been as cool as a cucumber. But don't be afraid to progress a horse as fast as he's comfy with, but then back off for a long time while you get miles under his belt.
If you were using full collar harness you'd have no need for a swingletree, but using breast collar you must have them. With most modern vehicles you will have both roller bolts to attach collared horses to, or fixed trace hooks on a 2 wheeler, but they also have swingletrees for collared harness. The swingle trees rock forwards and backwards to accomodate the horse's shoulders moving forwards and back, if you attached them to fixed points the poor horse would get sore shoulders as he worked in collars that were static. Full collars are up on the shoulders and won't rub.
On the photo of the bay pair, have a look by their tails, you'll see the traces attached to two horizontal bars which swing, and above them there are two little mushrooms, those are for collars.
Colonel, the heavy saddles are generally for the heavy farm carts, for ploughing and the like I think you are fine with just a roller.
Go and speak to Bertie on Montyroberts.co.uk. She's really great on heavy horse stuff, she does all the snazzy decorative harness too and what she don't know about heavy horse stuff ain't worth knowing, it is a totally different art to light harness horse stuff.
Go and speak to Bertie on Montyroberts.co.uk. She's really great on heavy horse stuff, she does all the snazzy decorative harness too and what she don't know about heavy horse stuff ain't worth knowing, it is a totally different art to light harness horse stuff.
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