establish respect? no fenced area for join-up...

S

schimmer

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Apr 26, 2001
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Hi,

My horse has nipped me 3 times in 2 days. He's not vicious, but he doesn't respect my space or view me as the "lead mare." He's nipped me while cleaning his front hooves and leading him out of the pasture away from his friends. Once I ignored it and the other two times I squared off to him and slapped his shoulder with an open hand. I hated hiting him but I wanted to make it clear that biting me is not okay. Is this the right thing to do?

How can I work with him to establish my own space? We don't have a fenced schooling area, so I can't do join-up. He doesn't lunge - probably part of his invading my space issue. He either sticks to me like glue and refuses to walk away, or squares off to threaten me. (Apparently he does lunge, but you have to prob him in the shoulder to get him started. I'd rather not do this. I want him to respect and trust me and lunge because I asked, not because I prodded him.) I am happy to spend lots of time on groundwork, but I don't know what to do.

I have the horse on a lease and have only been working with him for a week. I've never had to deal with these issues before.

I really want to be sympathetic and enlightened rider/handler, please help!

Thanks,
Schimmer
 
You don't need a round pen or join up to establish respect, there are other ways.

One way I work to establish trust with my horse is on the ground with just a headcollar, leadrope and longish crop. I ask the horse to move away from me, to the side of me, turn it's quarters and forehand, back up and lower his/her head. I start off asking by pointing at the area and giving the command (over, back, etc). If this doesn't work straight away I touch it gently with the crop and repeat the command. If that doesn't work I tap (not hard, just enough to be annoying) repeatedly on the area I want to move until the horse does move. As soon as the horse makes even a slight shift to where you're asking you remove the pressure (tapping, touching, voice) and praise. Repeat this until the horse will move in any direction you ask from just the voice command and pointing or touching the body part.

Teach the horse to lead properly and with respect. The above exercises come into force here but I also carry the crop handle end out so if the horse barges they run into the handle and if needs be I can use the handle to make the horse back up. It shouldn't take too many goes at running into the crop for the horse to realise it's better to stay at a respectful distance and to keep their attention on you.

As for the nipping, I wouldn't want want to waste time squaring off and then slapping the shoulder. I'd have made the most awful and unusual noise I could muster up the minute he made contact (a scream works well!) - something that will startle him whilst he's actually making contact with you. In cases of hardened biters that can mean setting yourself up for it to happen! Sometimes a reflex whack on the shoulder is good but it has to be at the moment of the nip to have best affect.

It takes time to build a good relationship so don't worry if he doesn't instantly respect and trust you, and don't be suprised if he continues to test the boundaries of what is and isn't acceptable behaviour.

As for the lunging, you can teach him to do it but to make it easiest on yourself it would help to have someone around to give you a hand. Start off with someone leading him on a circle whilst you give the commands via the lunge line, whip and voice. The helpers purpose is to ensure the horse stays out on a circle until he understands that that is what you want him to do. As he gets used to it you can remove the helpers leadrope and after a while the helper. It takes a couple of sessions even with the brightest horses but seeing as you horse has been half taught to do it before it may be quicker.

Hope this helps
Amanda
 
Respect comes from being consistent. Don't let him get away with nipping, even once! You did the right thing, to use an open hand to the shoulder. I use an open hand to the chest myself. I never hit in the head, no matter what the horse does.

You can still establish space and even do join up without a round pen. How about using some objects like buckets, cones or boxes, etc and place them out as far as you want him to be from you as you lunge him, at least at all points of the compass. This then becomes your "round pen". Put him on a lunge line and make him move out to the area designated by the objects. Use a long stock whip to get him to move out and away from you and do the normal things you would do when you would lunge. If he comes in to you, use the whip. You don't necessarily have to hit him with it, just pop it in his direction as he tries to come in to you and he should get the message. Once he understands that he must stay out there until you ask him to come in, things should go better and you will be well on your way to gaining his respect. Good luck and keep us informed! Happy Trails!
 
All the advice given so far is excellent, but just keep at the back of your mind that if your horse were to take the same sort of liberties with the lead mare that he's taking with you, he'd get the same thing back and extra for his cheek! She certainly wouldn't stand for any such nonsense and neither should you.
 
Bebe gave excellent advice. :) Just one thing I've heard though, to stop biters - if you can anticipate when it will happen and are quick, shove a dandy brush (bristle end up) to the place he is intending to bite! A gob full of prickles will soon sort him! Also, if he's doing it for attention (dunno, but maybe) a smack still means he has won. If you pretend not to acknowlege him, just let him find out how awful it is to bite a dandy brush, he'll probably give up sooner.
 
Thanks everyone for the great advice.

I worked with him on the ground today, doing a lot of the exercises that Bebe recommends. I got him to lead with his head at my shoulder, instead of behind me. He tried to nip a number of times but when I told him "no" sternly he'd go for the lead rope instead! Well, it's progress anyway, so I feel better and will continue on in this direction. I think I'll try that dandy brush suggestion too. As for lungeing, I'm going to wait on that awhile, until I get this leading and nipping thing sorted.

Cheers!
Schimmer
 
Schimmer - another way of dealing with a nip is to give th horse a little kick on the pastern when they do it. they don't see you do it so don't associate the feeling with you - only with the fact that it hurts when they bite.

I tried it on Safi my two year old and she packed it in almost straight away.

Good luck!

Larri
 
Good news

I went out to ride again today. My horse actually came to the gate and nickered to me when I arrived! I couldn't believe it - usually he ignores me. And he didn't try to nip me at all. So looks like the groundwork is helping me establish a good relationship. I realize I many not be out of the woods yet, (I've seen one of Outrider's posts saying it takes 21 days to unlearn a bad habit - yikes!), but today was great. We had a fun hack that he enjoyed too.

Cheers!
 
i find that the best thing to do when they nip is to rub there nose round hard, doesnt hurt, they just find it so iritating, and if you do that EVERY time, they ALWAYS get the point
 
same problem

I have a new horse and he has many wonderful attributes. He
was the leader of his herd in former home, and quickly established
himself as leader in his new paddock with 5 other geldings.
He is very "smooth" in his dominance towards other horses,if you
can picture what I mean.
His only negative is: you guessed: A subtle but consistant disregard for my space. I have trouble getting too physical against him;
plus, I have two children who ride him and they have to get
his respect too. They need finesse .
If he leans his head into me while I groom, I 'flap" my elbow toward his nose real fast and shout NO. But he keeps doing it.
We have only been together 2 weeks. And the earlier ground
exercises are being practiced. Should I try the bristle brush
and just keep on the ground work? He is very smart, and learns
everything real fast, but not wanting to learn THIS idea too fast.
thanks for any interest. Sally
 
Interestingly, my horse is at the bottom of the pecking order in his herd. So he's either looking for someone to dominate or is used to being on the defensive, in my case.

Anyway, I've been doing groundwork with him too and he tends to lean in to me when leading. I've started taking a dressage whip with me and holding it so that the rubber covered handle faces him. When he leans, I poke him in the neck - gently, so it doesn't hurt him at all, but it annoys him. It's become unpleasant to lean on me, so he's stopping. It takes awhile though. I've accompanied it with saying "quit" and he's starting to respond to just the voice command now. Why don't you try that. Remember - use little nudges with the whip end, no steady pressure or he will lean into that.

Hope that helps!
 
biting horses

I saw Monty Roberts working with a 'nippy' pony. Everytime the horse went to bite him, he just tapped his foot against the horses lower leg. (wasn't hard enough to qualify as a 'kick', just enough to distract the horse from its intention)

Of course you have to be able to read the signals to do this close enough to the attempt to bite. But after a few times you could tell when the pony was THINKING about biting because it would look down it its own foot ! It had clearly made the association that biting someone no longer had zero consequence.

The dandy brush theory would seem to be along the same lines as this...
 
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