Wally said:Barefoot is a very strong topic as is hunting.......anyone go hunting barefoot
I'm not getting into this debate
... but I have
3 out of the 4 horses we took were barefoot and they all coped fine. 
Horses feet? Why oh why???!!!!
- Thread starter Rebecca00
- Start date
I'm not getting into this debate
... but I have
3 out of the 4 horses we took were barefoot and they all coped fine. 
Nothing wrong with the general foot structure or integrity of ponies living in boggy land, their feet are as hard as any mustang. Hill ponies have access to raods and still thier feet wear in funny ways depending what the Almighty gave them to start with.
Mine manage barefoot for 8 moths of the year. until the training trally gets going and then no foot can keep pace with the wear.
I have to say that I think this argument's gone on a while....
The original poster did post a rather inflamatory post, which looked like it was written in a moment of anger and/or frustration. So do the other posts on this forum posted by that person, on that day to do with barefoot/Natural Horsemanship. I think that needs to be recognised. How would any of us feel in that situation and with a lack of experience of GOOD trimming and trimmers?
Everyone on here knows where they stand regarding barefoot/shod and why, and no one usually has a go at anyone else for it. On this board everyone obviously loves and cares for their horses to the best of their ability and would never subject them to pain or discomfort willingly. None of us would use a bad trimmer, or a bad farrier, bad vet, bad trainer. If people on here choose to trim their horse's feet themselves, I'd be willing to bet they know what they're doing!
Shoes were invented because horses used to do hours and hours of work a day, far in excess of what we could even imagine. It was enough to wear down their horn and without shoes they would have been lame and unable to work. These days few horses do enough work to actually need shoes. Some people choose to go without, some horses need to go without for reasons of navicular or other problems, some keep them just in case, and some horses really do need them because they actually do enough work to warrant it. I don't think anyone is really going to argue with that, so let's all be friends and stop arguing. Please?
The original poster did post a rather inflamatory post, which looked like it was written in a moment of anger and/or frustration. So do the other posts on this forum posted by that person, on that day to do with barefoot/Natural Horsemanship. I think that needs to be recognised. How would any of us feel in that situation and with a lack of experience of GOOD trimming and trimmers?
Everyone on here knows where they stand regarding barefoot/shod and why, and no one usually has a go at anyone else for it. On this board everyone obviously loves and cares for their horses to the best of their ability and would never subject them to pain or discomfort willingly. None of us would use a bad trimmer, or a bad farrier, bad vet, bad trainer. If people on here choose to trim their horse's feet themselves, I'd be willing to bet they know what they're doing!
Shoes were invented because horses used to do hours and hours of work a day, far in excess of what we could even imagine. It was enough to wear down their horn and without shoes they would have been lame and unable to work. These days few horses do enough work to actually need shoes. Some people choose to go without, some horses need to go without for reasons of navicular or other problems, some keep them just in case, and some horses really do need them because they actually do enough work to warrant it. I don't think anyone is really going to argue with that, so let's all be friends and stop arguing. Please?
There's nothing wrong as such with the hooves of ponies living in boggy land just from living on that kind of ground, but hooves do adapt to their environment. There's usually less wear on softer surfaces, more chipping to get rid of length instead (a bit of WLD can actually help with self trimming rather than be a big problem) wet hooves are more likely to flare. A horse/pony whose feet are adapted to living on soft ground 24/7 won't have the toughness (mostly inner wall not outer wall, and it's more toughness than hardness) or growth rate to immediately cope with lots of movement on hard ground without wearing the feet down, though given time the hooves can adapt to harder ground.
Rebecca00 said:
I haven't had time to read the whole thread but will when I get the time (it's long!).
I would, however, invite you to meet my horse who is, to a certain extent raised 'naturally' these days. She is far from damaged. She has wonderful feet, she doesn't have sore spots or atrophy from her saddle and I've used NH to overcome the problems caused by the 'traditional' ways of bringing her on!!!
She has a treeless saddle, she lives out and is barefoot. I use NH (predominantly IH with Mark Rashid, Michael Peace and others plus a bit of common sense thrown in). My EP is extremely intelligent and well qualified and knows more about trims that my old farrier did.
Whilst I agree with your points in principle I would say that there are horses being damaged by people from all forms of 'training', both 'traditional' and 'NH'. I am against people going out, reading a book and setting about trimming, working with problems horses etc as much as you (one of the reasons I'm against PNH is that it's DVD based training which I don't agree with unless backed up by qualified instruction/supervision). I would say, however, that you need to look into these 'strange' ways a bit more before you slag them off! There's a lot that can be said to be wrong with some 'traditional' ways too.
I just love an educated argument
Rebecca00 said:
and you think that we don't know that already?
Have a rant about the spods at your yard, fine, but don't come on having a rant about NH & barefoot and not expect a few replies
I would suggest (as has already been suggested in more than a few of the posts that I've read) that the people at your yard aren't doing things the correct way. My mare has been barefoot for a year now and is more than happy to hack out for 2 hours at a time. I took her for a walk up our very stony lane today without an ouchie.
To address your comment about mollycoddling ... isn't putting shoes on mollycoddling because you're actually 'hiding' some of the structural problems of the feet which can be caused by having shoes on?
Anyway ... I'm off, bye
Haven't read all the thread (too long), but to the OP - I would strongly suggest that before you post such an erratic rant again, you actually do your homework and find out what you are talking about
As for your comment about the use of boots and maybe the horse should be shod - have you actually researched exactly what damage shoes can do to a foot? You are basically putting a static immoveable object onto a moveable living organism, so it really won't make much difference that the shoes are "light", they will still be immoveable and boots are a much better compromise if needed.
Honestly, give it a go, do some research, you might be pleasantly surprised!
For the record, some of the more legible bits of your post, I actually agree with. People should not go trimming other people's horses after 2 days training or even their own and NH principles can be abused as badly as traditional ones, but that doesn't make the tools bad, it just makes their application wrong in that instance.
Don't tar everyone with the same brush!
As for your comment about the use of boots and maybe the horse should be shod - have you actually researched exactly what damage shoes can do to a foot? You are basically putting a static immoveable object onto a moveable living organism, so it really won't make much difference that the shoes are "light", they will still be immoveable and boots are a much better compromise if needed.
Honestly, give it a go, do some research, you might be pleasantly surprised!
For the record, some of the more legible bits of your post, I actually agree with. People should not go trimming other people's horses after 2 days training or even their own and NH principles can be abused as badly as traditional ones, but that doesn't make the tools bad, it just makes their application wrong in that instance.
Don't tar everyone with the same brush!
Have you done your homework on the principles of shoeing?, If a foot is shod properly it will allow for the natural expansion and contraction of the hoof as they work.
I have done my homework, not only by the book but in practice. My horses, in heavy work cannot manage without shoes in summer.
Y
Yann
Guest
Surely if shoes didn't affect and restrict the internal function of the foot then horses wouldn't be sore when they were taken off? Just a thought. Unless you have a competent and conscientious farrier the feet invariably end up distorted to one degree or another. However shoeing hardworking horses is fine and sensible and nobody with any common sense is going to say barefoot is best for every situation or is going to work in every situation.
Unfortunately not all shoeing is good shoeing when you just have to look around the average showground to see some pretty poor sights in that department.
Unfortunately not all shoeing is good shoeing when you just have to look around the average showground to see some pretty poor sights in that department.
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Trim, environment and conditioning all have to be right to get a horse doing hard work barefoot. The most perfect trim can only shape the hooves and encourage them you grow the shape they should be, environment and conditioning are more important for getting horses doing hard work barefoot. But at the same time a bad trim (too short, not enough done, not balanced, weight all on outer wall etc) can make all the conditioning etc a lot less useful. I think it'd be pretty safe to ignore anyone telling you they could do the work barefoot if the trim was different without ever seeing how they are trimmed at the moment.
It's usually only unhealthy/damaged hooves or ones that have been in shoes a long time (years rather than months) and have adapted to being shod a bit too much that have transition problems.
I can have some overenthusiastic barefooter tendancies sometimes but think it sounds like you have the ideal solution for your horses. Shoe your own so you know they are done well and can do them when needed not when you can eventually persuade a farrier to show up, and they get a break from shoes which is very good for keeping hooves healthy long term. Even if it was possible for them to do the work barefoot with some changes to trim and more importantly environment I can't see why you'd want to change the way they live all winter and the hassle of conditioning so many horses when you already have a way of dealing with their feet which seems ideal for your situation.
Wally said:
Cos they don't know you
If you told me that it isn't working then I'd believe you (creep, creep
). Unfortunately some of the time the problems really are down to the owner whether it be not considering that there has to be a transition period and carrying on gunning around the countryside in their usual fashion, thinking that they can trim their own horse and making them sore or just that the trim isn't very good. I guess that it's a case of tarring everyone with the same brush
A small aside. While we may be of the opinion that the Farriers Council should set their house in order before trying to regulate barefoot trimmers... They are actively trying to get involved, and to be honest when you hear tales like this about 2 day course people out and trimming for money - well something needs to be done. My farrier told me that they have been told to be alert to any horse they consider to be in discomfort due to barefoot trimming by the owner, and report them to the RSPCA. I was on a course last week where there was a Jackson trained barefoot trimmer, and between her and the people on the course they knew of 3 owners reported to RSPCA recently because it was alleged they were causing suffering to their horses due to their trimming.
Is this an opportunity that some have spotted after the recent court case with Fiona Dean? Maybe some feel that make the RSPCA's life difficult enough and they will start to lobby for an over-arching body to regulate and police barefoot trimming? Who knows?
My horses are barefoot trimmed, and I keep them tidy between times, so I'm for barefoot when done properly. Don't shoot the messenger, I'm just telling you what I've been told.
Is this an opportunity that some have spotted after the recent court case with Fiona Dean? Maybe some feel that make the RSPCA's life difficult enough and they will start to lobby for an over-arching body to regulate and police barefoot trimming? Who knows?
My horses are barefoot trimmed, and I keep them tidy between times, so I'm for barefoot when done properly. Don't shoot the messenger, I'm just telling you what I've been told.
Y
Yann
Guest
I for one believe you
If Shetland had the same climate as Arizona perhaps you might stand a chance, perhaps not. A wet climate and environment is one of the biggest drawbacks in making a success of working a horse without shoes, and possibly why shoeing is almost universal in this country but not as much somewhere like the USA. The wet softens feet and horn and encourages infection, and if you can't control that then it's always going to be a struggle to keep any hard working horse going without shoes or boots. There are many other variables that will affect the chances of success, and some of them are also outside the control of the horse owner.
I am in sympathy with Rebeccas feelings and at bottom I DO agree with her.
However there is NO SUCH THING as 'Natural Horsemanship'. Its ALL about as 'un-natural' as can be-so whats the point of scrapping over a silly title.
There are different and various ways of schooling training and enjoying ones horse (s) and none are more 'right' or 'wrong' than any other-if they are done correctly-but none of them are 'natural'. It ceased to be in any way 'natural' the day and time that someone, in some forgotten era long past, had the idea that there was more to the horse than being on the menu.
Barefoot and its various --erm-degress of trimming is nothing to do with any school of 'horsemanship'-and I am in total agreement with the arguement that there are far too many people taking far too much upon themselves with their trimming knives.
However there is NO SUCH THING as 'Natural Horsemanship'. Its ALL about as 'un-natural' as can be-so whats the point of scrapping over a silly title.
There are different and various ways of schooling training and enjoying ones horse (s) and none are more 'right' or 'wrong' than any other-if they are done correctly-but none of them are 'natural'. It ceased to be in any way 'natural' the day and time that someone, in some forgotten era long past, had the idea that there was more to the horse than being on the menu.
Barefoot and its various --erm-degress of trimming is nothing to do with any school of 'horsemanship'-and I am in total agreement with the arguement that there are far too many people taking far too much upon themselves with their trimming knives.
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Yann
Guest
I'd like to know where this epidemic of clueless DIY trimmers are because I've not come across any. There are quite a few people with unshod horses on here and with very few exceptions they all use either farriers or trained and qualified trimmers to do their horses feet.
Y
Yann
Guest
Well I have both of mine barefoot and Ted was also barefoot (though when i'd got him he was hot shod) and Hayz will tell you what hard feet he has.
I've also recently removed Daks shoes (Full TB) he had horrendous feet and I was paying for a new set of shoes to get put on every other day so I asked my farrier if he could cope without, he said try him so I have been and Daks' feet are harder, they aren't crumbling or splitting as much as they were either. When we go out hacking I put a pair of easy boots on him just because I don't want any stones hurting his frog or anything.
I don't like my horses wearing shoes simply because I have read terrible articles where constant hammering of nails into their feet can cause long term damage on their legs, Of course there are horse who probably do NEED shoes but as long as my horses can get away with being barefoot and they aren't in pain etc then I'm going to keep them that way. It's better for them and more ''natural'' in my opinion
I've also recently removed Daks shoes (Full TB) he had horrendous feet and I was paying for a new set of shoes to get put on every other day
so I asked my farrier if he could cope without, he said try him so I have been and Daks' feet are harder, they aren't crumbling or splitting as much as they were either. When we go out hacking I put a pair of easy boots on him just because I don't want any stones hurting his frog or anything.I don't like my horses wearing shoes simply because I have read terrible articles where constant hammering of nails into their feet can cause long term damage on their legs, Of course there are horse who probably do NEED shoes but as long as my horses can get away with being barefoot and they aren't in pain etc then I'm going to keep them that way. It's better for them and more ''natural'' in my opinion
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