Re-teaching our horse to have hooves picked

[Celeste]

Our girl was always excellent with having her hooves picked on a daily basis. She was really good with the farrier too. The last time the farrier tried to shoe her, she would allow him to clean & clip her feet, but would only allow him to put on one shoe. He came back on two occasions & recomended sedation the second time, which did not work. Our yard teachers think her behaviour is due to no respect for us & that she is trying to get above us in field/group mentality. They recomended we increase her discipline by correcting her when she does not do what we ask, by pulling her halt firmly by the rope, tap to the face & returning her to her stable & not rewarding her with the field (she loves the field & could take herself there with no problems). She is intelligent & learns quickly. We are currently teaching her to stand & attempting to pick her feet twice daily without the association of food. There is no evidence of pain & her feet & hooves are healthy. She is allowing my daughter to now do het feet, in the afternoon....but for the last three days, not allowed me to do it in the mornings. The plan in the morning is food, stand, feet picked & field (reward). We will persevere until her behaviour is safe again, any suggestions?

 

[Jessey]

If she has always been good about it and her behavior has suddenly changed I would be questioning if she is in pain somewhere and that is causing her to 'act out', things like arthritis or laminitis can make shoeing very painful, even thrush can be very sore for some horses, I know you say there is no evidence of pain but the behaviour in itself could be just that, has a vet checked her?

 

[newforest]

She has had mites if I remember correctly that's might be the reason.


I don't follow the training here. The correction is instant so the reward should be. The stable is being used as punishment and field as reward?
I would understand feet picked out and food as reward as it's instant from behaviour to your response.

 

[carthorse]

With all due respect - which is very little - your yard teachers are talking rubbish & are going to create a bigger problem. Don't use a stable as punishment, you never know when you might need to stable her, and as for face tapping - well that's great if you want to create a headshy horse! As newforest says correction & reward should be instant.

Since your farrier managed to trim but not fit a shoe I'd strongly suspect pain somewhere, either in the foot or perhaps higher up which was jarred by the nailing in. Given that this has come on quickly I would be getting the vet to her because it doesn't sound like straightforward naughtiness. My lad who was normally saintly with his feet, if he wouldn't offer them to me or even became difficult for me to pick them up then it was almost always a sign that he was starting a bout of laminitis, also as he got older & had arthritis in his hocks the farrier would have to nail in as gently as he could & give him a break if he started to move his foot away - the nailing in would be felt in the hock if he hit too hard & made him hurt. Never discount a physical cause if a normally well behaved horse suddenly isn't.

 

[Trewsers]

If she has always been good about it and her behavior has suddenly changed I would be questioning if she is in pain somewhere and that is causing her to 'act out', things like arthritis or laminitis can make shoeing very painful, even thrush can be very sore for some horses, I know you say there is no evidence of pain but the behaviour in itself could be just that, has a vet checked her?

Yes and mud fever too, Chloe can be quite difficult if she's had a flare up.

 

[Trewsers]

I would also say the yard teachers are talking twaddle!
Don't punish her for something that might have a physical cause. I would get the vet to check her over if it carries on. And no no no to face tapping!!!!!! It took me years to undo what someone had done to Storm in her early life by I suspect "correcting" her tapping her face!!!!

 

[HaloHoney]

Have you considered clicker training? I found this video really interesting the other day- all about rewarding positive behaviour with a click/treat and building up from there. It’s learned behaviour, and can replace existing unhelpful behaviour patterns but without resorting to punishment.

 

[Flipo's Mum]

I think you've indicated before that this is a new horse to you? Was the horse known to the yard prior to you buying her? Is that where the opinion has arisen that somehow its your involvement with the horse that has caused the regression in behaviour? If that is the case I can understand why they yard employees are indicating that it is a lack of discipline that is causing this. A horse who doesn't respect the owner and see them as herd leader, is not going to lift feet etc. That doesn't discount that it could be pain related as a sudden change in behaviour for the farrier, if its always been the same farrier, might indicate a pain related problem.
I don't think we know enough about your situation to help effectively. Has your horse moved to this new yard? Is it maybe taking some time to settle in? How old is he/she? What is the horse's history in general? (Handling, riding, etc.)

My horse hated having his feet picked up when I first got him and I investigated all different possible issues - pain and behaviour related. I got his back done, about two weeks after getting him and worked on some general ground work to get him respecting me - its a big thing to offer a hoof as they are effectively handicapping themselves from being able to run in an emergency situation. If the horse doesn't feel settled and looked after in herd dynamics (assuming you as the herd leader), he will take things into his own hands and be ready to fight or flee himself. I still find on the occasion that my lad is on high alert for some imagined danger, he will be reluctant to pick his feet up. The way to resolve that is to get some groundwork and get some control over his feet - moving him around in general, not allowing him to move you.

I agree with newforest re training - your reward needs to be immediate so as to allow the horse to link it up with what they had done to elicit that reward. Whether you use treats or just a pat or a rub or a scratch on an itchy spot, it needs to happen as soon as the horse tries. Within two seconds. Not an hour after.
There are more intricate details on training to lift feet and how to go about it, but I'm not sure we can help with those specifics just yet without knowing more about your circumstances.

 

[Celeste]

If she has always been good about it and her behavior has suddenly changed I would be questioning if she is in pain somewhere and that is causing her to 'act out', things like arthritis or laminitis can make shoeing very painful, even thrush can be very sore for some horses, I know you say there is no evidence of pain but the behaviour in itself could be just that, has a vet checked her?

Thank you for your response....the farrier said there were no problems with her hooves & she had been allowing my daughter to pick her feet, but refusing for me

 

[Celeste]

She has had mites if I remember correctly that's might be the reason.


I don't follow the training here. The correction is instant so the reward should be. The stable is being used as punishment and field as reward?
I would understand feet picked out and food as reward as it's instant from behaviour to your response.

Thank you for your response.....she does not have mites because we ensure that she has had the vaccination. I take on board about the reward, that's good advice & makes sense about it being instant in the same way discipline is instant. The reason we use the field as reward, is because she is very bright & has attempted to dominate me recently in an attempt to get to the field because she knows how to get there.

 

[Celeste]

If she has always been good about it and her behavior has suddenly changed I would be questioning if she is in pain somewhere and that is causing her to 'act out', things like arthritis or laminitis can make shoeing very painful, even thrush can be very sore for some horses, I know you say there is no evidence of pain but the behaviour in itself could be just that, has a vet checked her?

If she has always been good about it and her behavior has suddenly changed I would be questioning if she is in pain somewhere and that is causing her to 'act out', things like arthritis or laminitis can make shoeing very painful, even thrush can be very sore for some horses, I know you say there is no evidence of pain but the behaviour in itself could be just that, has a vet checked her?

Thank you for your response, she had always let us pick her feet prior to the farrier. She also allowed my daughter to pick her feet afterwards. Lottie (our horse) has also attempted to barge me out of the way to get to her field, napped when going out hacking in an attempt to go back to the yard & thrown me off as a result. The farrier says her feet are healthy.

 

[Trewsers]

Thank you for your response.....she does not have mites because we ensure that she has had the vaccination. I take on board about the reward, that's good advice & makes sense about it being instant in the same way discipline is instant. The reason we use the field as reward, is because she is very bright & has attempted to dominate me recently in an attempt to get to the field because she knows how to get there.

The jabs for mites don't always work. I had them done for Chloe last year and they didn't fully get shut of them. I had to use a combination of things.

 

[Celeste]

With all due respect - which is very little - your yard teachers are talking rubbish & are going to create a bigger problem. Don't use a stable as punishment, you never know when you might need to stable her, and as for face tapping - well that's great if you want to create a headshy horse! As newforest says correction & reward should be instant.

Since your farrier managed to trim but not fit a shoe I'd strongly suspect pain somewhere, either in the foot or perhaps higher up which was jarred by the nailing in. Given that this has come on quickly I would be getting the vet to her because it doesn't sound like straightforward naughtiness. My lad who was normally saintly with his feet, if he wouldn't offer them to me or even became difficult for me to pick them up then it was almost always a sign that he was starting a bout of laminitis, also as he got older & had arthritis in his hocks the farrier would have to nail in as gently as he could & give him a break if he started to move his foot away - the nailing in would be felt in the hock if he hit too hard & made him hurt. Never discount a physical cause if a normally well behaved horse suddenly isn't.

Thank you for your response.....our Lottie is stabled every night & she was simply returned to her own stable. Our Lottie is not head shy, so please don't worry & please may I reassure you that I would never use face tapping excessively, because from my point of view a disrespectful & out of control horse is potentially dangerous & so is a frightened one. Do you have any better suggestions for disciplining a horse, baring in mind horses do use aggression such as biting, kicking & physical dominance when they are in a group which our Lottie is part of when she is in her field. I am also very aware that not only is a poorly behaved, powerful horse potentially dangerous.....but so is a frightened one & I would never use fear as any form of discipline regardless of advice from more experienced & qualified people.

Lottie (our horse) would allow my daughter to pick her feet after the farrier had been & the farrier said her feet & hooves are healthy, unlike him after he was kicked & given back ache because she was moving her powerful legs back & forwards. May I also say, that even though Lottie had cooperated with this gentle & patient farrier previously under our supervision at all times, that her behaviour had not always been well behaved, but her nature is most definately calm , gentle & patient

 

[Celeste]

I would also say the yard teachers are talking twaddle!
Don't punish her for something that might have a physical cause. I would get the vet to check her over if it carries on. And no no no to face tapping!!!!!! It took me years to undo what someone had done to Storm in her early life by I suspect "correcting" her tapping her face!!!!

Please may I reassure you that I do not support any form of discipline that creates fear, do you have any other suggestions? What if her behaviour is not physical? I am very mindful that a powerful & poorly behaved horse is equally as dangerous as a frightened one.

 

[Jessey]

Did it all start with the farrier or had she been refusing to pick her feet up for you before? Just wondering if maybe he caught her with a nail bind and that has set off a bit of a cycle?

 

[Celeste]

I think you've indicated before that this is a new horse to you? Was the horse known to the yard prior to you buying her? Is that where the opinion has arisen that somehow its your involvement with the horse that has caused the regression in behaviour? If that is the case I can understand why they yard employees are indicating that it is a lack of discipline that is causing this. A horse who doesn't respect the owner and see them as herd leader, is not going to lift feet etc. That doesn't discount that it could be pain related as a sudden change in behaviour for the farrier, if its always been the same farrier, might indicate a pain related problem.
I don't think we know enough about your situation to help effectively. Has your horse moved to this new yard? Is it maybe taking some time to settle in? How old is he/she? What is the horse's history in general? (Handling, riding, etc.)

My horse hated having his feet picked up when I first got him and I investigated all different possible issues - pain and behaviour related. I got his back done, about two weeks after getting him and worked on some general ground work to get him respecting me - its a big thing to offer a hoof as they are effectively handicapping themselves from being able to run in an emergency situation. If the horse doesn't feel settled and looked after in herd dynamics (assuming you as the herd leader), he will take things into his own hands and be ready to fight or flee himself. I still find on the occasion that my lad is on high alert for some imagined danger, he will be reluctant to pick his feet up. The way to resolve that is to get some groundwork and get some control over his feet - moving him around in general, not allowing him to move you.

I agree with newforest re training - your reward needs to be immediate so as to allow the horse to link it up with what they had done to elicit that reward. Whether you use treats or just a pat or a rub or a scratch on an itchy spot, it needs to happen as soon as the horse tries. Within two seconds. Not an hour after.
There are more intricate details on training to lift feet and how to go about it, but I'm not sure we can help with those specifics just yet without knowing more about your circumstances.

Thank you for your response, I found it very thoughtful & very helpful. I will definately take on board the instant reward for good behaviour, that make sense. Our Lottie has been with us 3 months, she had had only 1 previous owner& was used for hunting. She is 5 years old. Our professionally trained & experienced yard leaders/teachers are concerned that her behaviour is due to not seeing me as a leader. They have been watching her & helped me when she has napped during hacking, because she wants to go back to the yard & she has pushed past me out of her stable & taken herself across the yard in an attempt to take herself off to her field because she also knows where that is. Our yard leaders/teachers are concerned that her behaviour with the farrier is due to me being to soft on her because I am very gentle, kind & caring. Discipline does not come easily & I am very mindful that if she becomes out of control she can be potentially dangerous & if she becomes frightened she can be equally as dangerous, so I am working very hard to teach her to be a well behaved & safe horse

 

[Celeste]

The jabs for mites don't always work. I had them done for Chloe last year and they didn't fully get shut of them. I had to use a combination of things.

Really? Thank you for telling me that, what combination did you use?

 

[Trewsers]

Please may I reassure you that I do not support any form of discipline that creates fear, do you have any other suggestions? What if her behaviour is not physical? I am very mindful that a powerful & poorly behaved horse is equally as dangerous as a frightened one.

Yes too true, a poorly behaved one is scary also. But I am always wary of anything like face tapping or slapping (seen that in the past ) and how damaging it can be mentally. If the vet is sure it isn't physical then something like the clicker training as already suggested might be worth looking into.
Alternatively, if it were me (I was lucky that my girl was always good for having her feet picked out) I think I'd start slowly and reward either with some nice scratches or a polo / carrot each time she is okay and doesn't snatch away. Though of course treats aren't something everyone gives, it's personal prefernce. Chloe can be hard work to have hers picked and even for the farrier to trim on odd occasions. I have found a way to keep her happy if I think she might be going to struggle, she loves having the tops and inner thigh part of her legs scratchedso maybe you could find a nice spot that she enjoys being fussed? And use as a reward?

 

[Trewsers]

Really? Thank you for telling me that, what combination did you use?

Our old vets made up their own mite wash which we applied after bathing with Seleen shampoo (which is actually meant for dogs but the vet gave it us for our horses). I don't know what was in their own prep but since moving here, our vet advised me to use Deosect. Smells awfuo and you have to apply very carefully wearing gloves etc but it does work quite well.
In between using that I apply pig oil and sulphur. She still stamps but the oil and sulphur do make an unpleasant environment for the mites so they do lessen.

 

[Celeste]

Did it all start with the farrier or had she been refusing to pick her feet up for you before? Just wondering if maybe he caught her with a nail bind and that has set off a bit of a cycle?

Thank you for your response & No, she had some behavioural problems before the farrier.....& our year leaders/teachers are concerned that she is not being for the farrier because of me, they are concerned that I am too soft on her & to be honest I adore her, but that won't help her to behave well or prevent her from being potentially dangerous.

Yes she did allow us to pick her feet before & allowed my daughters to pick them after the farrier......