Working long and low?

Rakeli

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Oct 30, 2002
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(Don't know whether I should post this here, but several people whose opinions I respect look here, and I don't know if they post elsewhere!)

Me and Jazz went dressaging on Sunday, and one of the comments the judge made was that he needed to work lower at home to stretch the back muscles. BUT as he is built more downhill then uphill, would that just push him onto his forehand rather than help him? Would it help to do lots of transitions whilst working lower?

Thanks in advance!
 
Working long and low is not working on the forehand. It's a stretch of the back muscles (putting head down) WHILE still working from behind, and so balanced.

It's good for a horse who's building topline; I would think it's especially necessary for one who is built downhill, and thus has to work harder building those muscles and learning self-carriage. You must stretch muscles that work. They need to stretch as well as work or they will start to tear instead of strengthening.

I *think* there is some good description of long and low in Heather's book; hmm...looking...aha. Here's a decent site :)
http://www.geocities.com:80/Paris/LeftBank/4608/longandlow.html
The first image looks much too behind the vertical (it could be just the angle of the picture)--the horse's head should not be behind the vertical, but should be approximately "on the bit"...just stretched down. There is a better picture by the description further down the page.
 
As Kerry needs to work long and low atm for important therapeutic reasons I thought I'd answer.

I have been "trying" to do this but felt she was working off her forehand - until Sunday when Sam (home-based instructor) encouraged me to take my arms out to the side more, then more, then more (well that's what it felt like to me but I'm VERY sensitive so it probably wasn't that much more at all).

Anyway, the difference in Kerry's way of going was significant. I could much much more confidently assess her response to circle size on each rein (and this in a diagnostic sense is very important atm). Also, it was really really lovely to be able to feel how far she has progressed since her first McTimoney treatment and to be able to "know" that she is now ready for her next (which she will have on Saturday).

And for those of you who don't expect me to describe things in any other way but than from Kerry's perspective I'd say she thought - omg she actually knows how to help me to do that ................ AT LAST!!!!!!!!!!!

Anyway, hope this helps you Rakeli. Also, I'd be very grateful for a response from Sue - she explains things so well and I'd be really interested to hear her views re your original post - as well as, selfishly, my own reply.

Sandra

"
 
I suspect we're going to have to agree to differ here. Long and low will put a horse on its forehand by its very nature. In order to allow the weight to be taken back onto the haunches and the shoulders to open up and allow the movement to flow, the ideal is to have the poll as the highest point and the face at or just in front of the vertical. That's not long and low. The trouble is so many people seem to teach L&L these days that it's become the norm, and when we see a horse with its head and neck in the correct position we think it looks odd!

I agree that L&L can be a good loosening exercise to warm up with, but if you use it for anything more than that you'll never get the horse up off its forehand.

I have to say that I'm totally ignoring the trends of modern competition dressage here and adhering to the teachings of the very best classical trainers. I've just spent a whole weekend watching a load of horses improve noticeably, and in some cases very dramatically, by being rescued from the L&L trap and being brought up off their forehands :)
 
Well, for Kerry, I am more worried than I've ever been now - or IS there a difference due to her needing "therapy" since I have absolutely no axe to grind at all on the technical aspects of riding - I clearly don't have a clue.
 
p.s. A kinder way to teach!!!!!!!!

Can anyone help Rakeli by answering her questions - at her level of accomplishment - she is a quite remarkable youngster after all?

And btw it is "loosening up" we're trying to achieve for Kerry, IO think - yet why do I feel as though I've just had a thorough telling off?
 
Sandra - if you're referring to my reply (?) I was agreeing to differ with Galadriel. If Kerry has had problems and needs to work long and low for a specific reason that's for her therapist to decide and I wouldn't dream of telling you otherwise :) Sorry if you thought I was trying to do so.

And anyway, agreeing to differ is just that - not the same as arguing at all ;)
 
Thank you for all the replies!

So I shouldn't do long and low to stretch Jazz's back muscles? Does anyone have any other ideas on how to stretch those muscles?

Oh, and another question! (sorry!). Are there any cases when you would use LandL? And please could ros clarify her first post as the remarkable youngster does not understand! :D (Your so nice to me Kerry'sPartner!)

R
 
Looks like you've got yourself a nickname, Rachel!

Which bit didn't you understand? I wasn't saying you can't use long and low as a warm-up - just that normally you shouldn't use it all the time, because then the horse gets used to going on its forehand. What seems to happen an awful lot nowadays is that too much emphasis is placed on working horses long and low, and then when the rider wants to do more advanced work they don't understand how to teach the horse to start "taking the weight back", so they just continue to allow him to work on his forehand and reel him in at the front, in the mistaken belief that the low, overbent head and neck position looks good and must be correct. And watching a lot of so-called "top" riders, that opinion seems to carry through to the highest levels :(

I think the most important thing to understand is that the horse is best able to cope with performing the various movements we ask of him, under the weight of a rider, if we encourage him - by riding him correctly - to strengthen his hindquarters and move his centre of gravity off his forehand. And that goes for any discipline.

If you read Heather's comments about the Paul Belasik clinic on this forum she explains how Paul went about teaching riders to start riding their horses "up in front". It isn't terribly difficult once you grasp what's required (of course, it's easier if you see for yourself rather than having it jst explained in writing) but you do have to remember that you should be thinking "up and forward" with your hands and *not* "up and pull back". Have a read and see what you make of it. :)
 

Simply from a logical level I would agree with ros. I can't say that I have alot of experience with riding horses on a contact at all but from what I have read it seems to make sense. I am always the type to step away from the crowd and not get caught up in fashions, (probably also the reason why I am only just now getting into fluoro pink leg warmers ;)).

Anyway from my novice standpoint it seems that if the aim is to get the horse off the forehand - to prevent injury, then working long and low for long periods, especially with young horses seems odd. I can see how it would be good for loosening though. (I think I am copying ros' statements here :eek:).
 
Copy me any time, Shiny. And PINK leg warmers?????????

Glad you mentioned young horses. Paul Belasik was asked how he starts his youngsters, and his opinion is that you start as you mean to go on, teaching the horse to carry itself uphill and become light. Obviously you have to build up their strength very gradually by schooling little and often, and with plenty of rests so you don't tire young muscles. But Paul feels that the longer you keep a young horse long and low, the more difficult it will be to get him up off his forehand, so why make life difficult for everyone? :)
 
just gonna add my penny's worth....

What feels 'long and low' to a rider is not necessarily unbalanced and on the forehand.

My mare is western trained so is quite happy to toddle round in a relatively long low outline. At the same time she is engaged and tracking up. This is not necessarily at speed - more at something approaching a western jog.

By allowing the horse to adopt a slightly lower head set, and lengthen along the back - you are also freeing them up to step slightly more under and through.

Try it yourself on all fours. If you have your head up, and try and bring a 'back leg' through, and then try it with your head level (not down) and see the difference..... (but if you round your back like a cat does and try again, i.e. over-round/deep style, all sorts of weird stuff starts to happen - trying this will give you a feel for the extremes to avoid as well as the point you are aiming for !).

There has been previous threads about excessive use of "Long and Low" - but a lot seems to be in how you define it - i.e. not too "deep". You want just enough that the horse is using his topline, without over stretching joints and ligaments and ending up unbalanced.

I think the other important thing here (as has already been said) is that working long and low is a part of the whole, not the whole itself. e.g. part of warm up and cool down, part of helping a horse understand how to lift his back etc.

and to try and address some of the original questions....

- try to make sure that the work is active, especially behind - but not rushed. If the horse is active but not too forward, and in self-carriage, then it becomes more difficult/unlikely for them to be on the forehand. It may take some time for them to learn how to do this, so start with short stretches of "LandL".

It can actually be a really good exercise to ask them to maintain long and low through a transition, as well as helping them maintain the long and low - so transitions and half halts are good. aim to keep them soft and quiet, without 'creeping' up the rein.

I found that starting to ask while doing lots of turns and circles helped keep my mare loose and supple, whilst keeping the speed sensible. Make a snake trail !

I also find long and low leg yield is a really good rider exercise, as asking for sideways movement without getting (a) increase in speed and (b) without using the reins means you really have to be tuned in to your horse and yourself. It is also useful to keep the horse thinking, using itself, and not rushing off.

[Our first attempts at jog were lacking engagement so had hind feet dragging. But now we're getting the hang of it. It was easier to get at first from trot, slowing down, rather than from walk. But now we're getting better at walk-jog.]
 
Thanks for clarifying you post ros, and thanks to everyone else for all the replies! (they are very appreciated). I think I'll just stick with what I'm doing with him then. He does like to stretch down in walk and trot, with his neck 'arched' still, so will get someone to take a pic to see what that looks like. I could encourage him to do that instead!

:) :) :)

R
 
I am DELIGHTED to say that Kerry is definitely significantly better -so L&L, or at any rate my version of it and in her specific circumstances (absolutely nowhere near a dressage competition) worked very well indeed.

I'm actually quite excited because after a few more days Marks says it will be now "right" to ask her to work properly for short periods of time (with L&L in between). She's had loads more treatment today but she was such a good girl - as Mark moved around her to treat her it was as if she was saying oh tg you're going to do that bit now. When he extended her neck - now guys this is my loose phrase remember!! - she scrunched her eyes up then opened up suck kind eyes - repeatedly.

btw Sue you have a competitor - she clearly loves Mark to bits - she remembered him too!!!!!!!!!!!! I trust my mare - because she knows.
 
Ah well, Mark better be part of the family then. Mum, Auntie Sue and Uncle Mark. :) I am very, very pleased that Kerry is getting better. Give her my love.

I shan't really get into the long and low argument, as I think it depends. What's meant by long and low, where the horse is, where the rider is, how it's done, when, where, how often and why. I did chop the head and neck off some photos I have and was going to post them to see whether anyone could pick out where the head and neck were and whether any were long and low, but once I'd done it, I couldn't tell myself, so couldn't give the answer and had to give up. <g>

I think it's more the deep and round and people making their horses go long and low forever and a day as an end result that's the real problem, not long and low in itself. Kerry should be doing what Uncle Mark recommends, or Auntie Sue (and Auntie Heather) wouldn't have recommended him in the first place. :D

Sue
sue@eclipse.co.uk
 
Thanks Sue. I really giggled about the photos.
Why don't you try it again if you can find some more but mark the back of them first - I think it sounds like a brilliant teaching tool.

btw I've got to talk to the farrier too - Mark watched very carefully when she was trotted up then at her right fore. She's landing on the outside of her right foot so wearing the outside of the shoe and I've never noticed that before (but perhaps that's just me not being observant enough).

Well what a responsibility to bring her back into work - I wish I could beam us down or you up to be quite honest.
 
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I'm sorted now. Had a lesson with a new instructor who was very nice and suggested that I let him stretch down in walk and trot for about 10-15 minutes each rein before bringing him up, so that he was already taking longer strides and swinging through his back.

So that's now what we're doing, but again, thanks to everyone as I now know alot more about it!
 
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