Argumentative mare just breaking my heart

[jillaroo]

Hi all,
Would really appreciate your thoughts & experiences. Apologies that this is so long A little over 2 months ago I bought a 5.5 year old Andalusian mare. Previously she had been shown in-hand by her breeder and taken for leisurely rides around the paddocks to bring in the cows & check fences (they breed Andys & run a few cattle). Overall she is incredibly bomb-proof and unfazed - branches falling off trees right by her side, dogs, trucks, motor bikes, other horses spooking, flapping flags...nothing seems to spook her. So in that sense she is a dream. But riding her is becoming a miserable battle. She is young and so we are starting from basics - I have a wonderful, highly experienced instructor who I have a lesson with once a week, & the rest of the time I'm on my own - but even getting on her and getting her to go forward is a bloody battle. I ride her in the arena 2-4 times a week, and out on the trails in the bush once a week. Today when I tried to get on her she moved away so I growled at her "No!", she moved again so I smacked her & growled; she moved again so I flicked her with the dressage whip & growled; she moved again so I flicked her hard with the whip - she stood and let me mount. I felt sick. I felt as though I had just abused my horse by hitting her so hard. At walk she is usually pretty good - she's very responsive to seat & legs. As soon as we start trotting the battle begins - she throws her head around, tries to go where she wants rather than where I want and spends most of the time with her ears back (not quite pinned, but not far off). On trail rides she has her ears back pretty much the whole time, as though she resents the whole bloody outing, even though she is with one of her paddock buddies. Her teeth are good, her saddle has been expertly fitted and my instructor thinks it's 100% attitude - in lessons when she does this my instructor makes me really ride her forward until she becomes more giving. On the ground I have had to assert my authority with in-hand work and now she is fabulous - at my side, goes where I go, stops when I stop, matches my pace...an angel!But under saddle - "Nup. Get lost!"
It's early days, I know, but I have never owned a mare before, and never a horse so young, and so I guess my question is, is this likely a teething issue and once we get our relationship sorted she'll be the willing companion I'm hoping for, or is this "Get stuffed! Make me!" attitude likely to be the hallmark of our relationship? This constant conflict & need to be physically violent with her is really taking a lot of the joy out of our life together.
All thoughts & suggestions much appreciated!

 

[Trewsers]

Smacking her hard with a whip won't do anything but make her scared of you. She may eventually give in and be so afraid of being hit you can mount but do you really want a relationship based on fear?
There is a better and far kinder way than this. Have you considered reading up on Michael Peace? He uses good fair methods in his training.

 

[Jane&Ziggy]

I wouldn't normally agree with smacking a horse (and I don't want the answers to your post to become focused around that issue) and I very rarely hit Ziggy, but on a couple of occasions recently he has refused to load by lifting his head, cocking a back foot and going to sleep. No form of encouragement or enticement will move him. A smart smack on the bum, though, and he walks straight in, because he is just taking the p*ss. He is clicker (reward) trained and will usually do anything for a click, but when it comes to loading only a severe attitude from me and a smack will do.

If you are sure, sure, that your young mare is not in pain from saddle, bridle or injury, then perhaps she is taking the p*ss too. Does anyone else ride her - your instructor, for example? If so, how does she go for them?

I am very familiar with being able to get good cooperation at walk and less so at trot. What works for me with my pony is to use sitting trot, because then I can stay in full contact with him through my seat and he doesn't get away from me. Once that head goes up I'm lost!

I haven't any experience of youngsters but I believe that they can be very stroppy and opinionated, usually a little while after they have been backed and ridden away. I believe you have to tough it out - but I really understand your feeling that the fun has gone out of it. Hang in there, see what other people on here advise.

 

[OwnedbyChanter]

Hello and welcome. Not going to mention the mounting issue at all sometimes we do what we must at the time. But what I will say is that if her ears are back when when hacking out and having fun I would intially just get an MOT, Young horses change shape rapidly and their backs get sore a lot quicker then the older horse that has built the correct muscle over time and training.


What is she like on the lunge? have you tried her with saddle off and saddle on this can be a good show as to any pain related problems.

Once you have checked that out, then firm and fair has worked with my young one when I got him, I work on ask nicely once, ask again, back up with stick if they are still refusing then I smack with the stick either hard against my boot or on the pony but wear a neck strap.

Good luck

 

[Rubic]

Hi all,
Would really appreciate your thoughts & experiences. Apologies that this is so long A little over 2 months ago I bought a 5.5 year old Andalusian mare. Previously she had been shown in-hand by her breeder and taken for leisurely rides around the paddocks to bring in the cows & check fences (they breed Andys & run a few cattle). Overall she is incredibly bomb-proof and unfazed - branches falling off trees right by her side, dogs, trucks, motor bikes, other horses spooking, flapping flags...nothing seems to spook her. So in that sense she is a dream. But riding her is becoming a miserable battle. She is young and so we are starting from basics - I have a wonderful, highly experienced instructor who I have a lesson with once a week, & the rest of the time I'm on my own - but even getting on her and getting her to go forward is a bloody battle. I ride her in the arena 2-4 times a week, and out on the trails in the bush once a week. Today when I tried to get on her she moved away so I growled at her "No!", she moved again so I smacked her & growled; she moved again so I flicked her with the dressage whip & growled; she moved again so I flicked her hard with the whip - she stood and let me mount. I felt sick. I felt as though I had just abused my horse by hitting her so hard. At walk she is usually pretty good - she's very responsive to seat & legs. As soon as we start trotting the battle begins - she throws her head around, tries to go where she wants rather than where I want and spends most of the time with her ears back (not quite pinned, but not far off). On trail rides she has her ears back pretty much the whole time, as though she resents the whole bloody outing, even though she is with one of her paddock buddies. Her teeth are good, her saddle has been expertly fitted and my instructor thinks it's 100% attitude - in lessons when she does this my instructor makes me really ride her forward until she becomes more giving. On the ground I have had to assert my authority with in-hand work and now she is fabulous - at my side, goes where I go, stops when I stop, matches my pace...an angel!But under saddle - "Nup. Get lost!"
It's early days, I know, but I have never owned a mare before, and never a horse so young, and so I guess my question is, is this likely a teething issue and once we get our relationship sorted she'll be the willing companion I'm hoping for, or is this "Get stuffed! Make me!" attitude likely to be the hallmark of our relationship? This constant conflict & need to be physically violent with her is really taking a lot of the joy out of our life together.
All thoughts & suggestions much appreciated!

I think you've sort of answered your own question a bit when you say "I felt sick. I felt as though I had just abused my horse by hitting her so hard." - she is not responding well to this kind of treatment and you need to find another way that is much more pleasant for you both. Right now you are making the experience (lets just take the mounting to begin with) horrible for her so why is she going to want to stand at the mounting block for you when she gets growled at and smacked? She doesn't want to and nothing right now is encouraging her to want to do it! What you are doing just now is negative reinforcement and IMO it doesn't solve anything! Try and make the experience nice for her and I'm sure she will oblige. Forget about anything bad she does and focus on the good things and, most importantly, reward the good things (positive reinforcement). I do a bit of clicker training with my horse and it is something you could apply to this situation really easily. Start to walk her up to the mounting block and make it easy for her at first, think about how close you usually can get without any issue and take it back a few steps because you want her to be capable of what you are asking and you want her to understand what you are asking. When you get to that point stop and reward her, give her a stroke, praise her and give her a treat. Do that a couple of times and once she is good at it then move on a small step; try to get her another step closer, get her to touch the mounting block with her nose, get her to stand still beside it with you on the off side for say 5seconds then increase the time gradually, then get her to stand by it while you get on the mounting block and increase the time gradually, then with you putting weight in the stirrup or with you leaning over her etc etc. until she will happily stand for you to get on and off. You need to take things slowly and if she doesn't understand go back a step and keep reassuring her, don't get mad with her, don't get frustrated. It could well be she doesn't understand what is expected from her or she is genuinely worried about something.

Don't let your relationship be about force, change it so she wants to please you because you are a nice owner to be around. It's not just a mare thing and is not just a youngster thing, any horse could react they way she has done. I am by no means a fluffy bunny, I will give my horse a smack or growl on occasion but I know my horse inside out and I know when is best to be nice and encouraging and I can tell when she is taking liberties. I'd much rather things were nice for us both though.

If you google positive reinforcement in horses loads of information will come up and I'm sure you'll find some good things to read that will help you - This website seems quite good http://www.equineclickertraining.com/clicker_basics/clicker_basics_new.html and I also rate Alex Kurlands books http://www.theclickercenter.com/

And I agree with getting her a once over to check her saddle and back again

 

[jillaroo]

Thanks so much for your replies. The last thing in the world that I want is a relationship based on fear or aggression. I have a lot of experience training dogs & always use positive reinforcement - I have never, ever used physical force or aggression with a dog. And, this, according to several people at my yard, & my instructor, is the problem. The unanimous consensus is that I am too soft & that she is absolutely taking the p*ss. When my instructor rides her she has the same issues with the ears & head tossing, & determination to go her way rather than where you want her to go, but is better at anticipating it & taking preventive action. I should also have mentioned that this moving away as I am about to mount has happened once before & when my instructor was there she got a firm reprimand (my instructor took the reins & she then stood & let me mount) & it fully resolved when my instructor got me working with her to get some respect on the ground - she knows to stand & is usually perfect. Today I was on my own with no-one to help hold her. I am absolutely certain that she was taking the p*ss today. Also, when I flicked her "hard", by most people's standards it probably wasn't - she didn't really react at all & honestly I think I'm so neurotic about using any negative reinforcement that my "hard" is pretty wimpy. I will get her saddle checked again, but my instructor & everyone else at the yards is convinced it's attitude & not discomfort, & that I need to "step up & take control". She gets lots of positive reinforcement & this is the first time I have used any negative action.

 

[Kite_Rider]

I hate to say this and will no doubt get jumped on but sometimes no matter how much we don't want to resort to a smack or getting tough, it does occasionally become necessary.
My little mare is really good, fabulous on the ground and for the most part ridden, however, when she's in one of those uncooperative moods no amount of kindness and positive reinforcement will work, she'll just stick two fingers up at you and laugh.
On the odd occasion when she has a strop ridden the only thing that will get her attention is a short sharp smack with the whip, only ever need to do it once and she's right back with me, I'm not talking repeated beatings or even a really hard smack and believe me I've tried everything else but it's almost as though that is the only thing that makes her realise I actually mean what I'm asking. Saying that she is never stroppy on a hack only ever in the school.
My old RI used to say, 'although what we are aiming for is a response from the lightest of touch, sometimes you really do need a sledgehammer' obviously not a real sledgehammer but you get the meaning? I always hated the idea of actually smacking a horse and it was something I'd never done before so completely alien to me, but sometimes it is in my opinion the only option.
And before anyone has a pop, yes Belle's back/teeth/saddle/feet/bridle and everything else have been checked and are regularly.

 

[Flipo's Mum]

Try backing her up if she doesn't want to stand at the block - it may seem like negative reinforcement, but its just you taking control of her feet - if she wants to move, you make her move in the direction you want her to go (and most horses don't like being backed up). Worked a treat with my boy. I tried clicker, but it just ended up too fiddly to deal with in that particular situation, although I use it for a lot of other experiences.
I'd get a bit of an MOT done on her - how is she if you walk her out inhand on trails? Just trying a process of elimination to see if it is just behaviour?

 

[Kite_Rider]

Oh and also, when Belle used to swing her bum out when I tried to mount her the easiest solution for me was to put her against a wall/fence and move the block to where she was standing, either that or I have got on from the 'wrong' side sometimes too, that always used to work. Probably not the best method but it worked for us. Never have any problems mounting now.

 

[CharliesAngel]

sounds like she is a dominant mare with a firm idea of her own opinions You gotta love em

You will never get the best out of her by forcing her and being her ‘boss’. You need to find an RI who understands this and will work on showing you how to get her to relax, focusing on her balance and rhythm and then you learn how to get her to work well on your terms.. by making ‘suggestions’ not demands, you ask a question of her and if she isn’t tuned in and relaxed enough to answer you keep working her with no major pressure but keeping her mentally busy and engaged and then ask again, you will learn how to let her come round to thinking going well was all her own idea

Some simple groundwork will also help build trust and understanding, as another poster has said, backing her up, yielding quarters etc.

It took me quite some time to get to grips with a very dominant little mare I had and several instructors just didn’t suit us as they wanted to demand and force her to work when she was told to. Thankfully I found an RI who understood her and helped me work through the scales of training and accept that she needed a longer mental warm up than most other horses and then when she switched on, she would be a complete star Good luck!

 

[Mary Poppins]

My horse is generally very easy, but from time to time he likes to show me that beneath his gentle exterior he does have opinions and an attitude. About 6 months ago he went through a phase of moving off from the mounting block when I went to get on. As soon as I went to put my foot in the stirrup he would move off. I tried all the tricks – backing him up, leading him round again etc. etc. He just got worse and it was taking me a good 10 minutes to get on him. I could tell he was being cheeky and was just laughing at me.
I asked the yard manager for help and she told me to put my whip into my right hand and place it over the saddle before I got on. If he moved away I was to give him a smack with the whip and stay ‘stand’. I did this once and he never attempted to move off again.

I have also used my whip when teaching Ben to lead properly in-hand. He used to lack manners and would be impossible to lead with him randomly stopping. When I was leading him in-hand and he stopped I would give him a smack with the schooling whip and give the command ‘walk on’. He soon got the message and these days we don’t have any problems leading at all.

I think that there is nothing wrong with using the whip as long as you are sure that your timing is correct and that your horse understands why you are using it. I think that horses are very quick to get the measure of someone who lacks confidence and is not assertive. There may be some truth in what your instructor is saying about you being too soft. That doesn’t mean that you have to become very heavy handed, it just means that you have to be determined in your approach and insist that your mare does as asked.

I would also add that several people (if not everyone) will have teething problems with a new horse so don’t worry too much just yet.

 

[jillaroo]

Oh thank you, thank you, thank you, everyone I really appreciate it - lots of good advice, ideas to apply & food for thought. I think she was in a general strop today - she tried to avoid being caught by hiding behind a tiny shrub: "if I can't see her she can't see me!". And her ears were back the whole walk up from the paddock to the tack-up area. She is incredibly smart & picks things up in a flash, & I'm sure she has the measure of me. Thanks again everyone - feeling much less anxious.

 

[Mary Poppins]

Whenever Ben gets too big for his boots, we always go back to in-hand groudwork. If I can get him to march around the yard, stand still when I ask, back up when I ask and walk and trot when I ask, he is much, much easier to do everything else with. By doing that kind of ground work, he respects me as his leader and then stops being opinionated.

 

[Jane&Ziggy]

I also recommend groundwork. Like you, I have dogs and don't use any physical punishment with them at all, and I believed for a long time that I should be able to achieve the same results with Ziggy without any coercion. When he is in a cooperative mood that is fine, but sometimes (he is a pony after all) I have to show him that I can be assertive. For example, when we are leading out of the shelter to set off on a hack, sometimes he won't move. He's not upset or stressed, just stubborn. All I do is take the schooling whip from the reack and touch his quarters with it - not even a smack, just a reminder that I could if I wanted to. He walks on at once!

So I don't believe that the occasional use of a physical reprimand is out of place with a horse. After all, they do it to each other as a matter of course - unlike most dogs, who in my experience posture and threaten more than make physical contact.

 

[Jessey]

I always had geldings until jess, at 2 she battered the crap out of me repeatedly, she's a real chestnut mare! I had to draw a very serious line in the sand with her, I had a good trainer who helped, but it was the everyday stuff that got us on track, I had to be very strict about where that line was and if she put a hair over it she was firmly corrected. I also control the thing she wants most, food, she has to be polite and out of my space before she can have it, if she pushes in the slightest I wait for her to figure out what the right reaction is, then she gets it.
We had a stern and clearly defined relationship, for the first couple of years, one waiver and she had it figured, I had to be super consistent with her, my boys all let me get away with lazy days, she would take advantage of them.
We have that relationship still, but she doesn't try to cross the line anymore, we have cuddles and are close but she knows the rules. Very occasionally she will cross the line more out of not thinking, you can see as soon as I react she just realised what she did and goes all soppy like she is grovelling.
A 2nd on the check ups too, at 5 jess grew/muscled out of saddles every 6-8 weeks, I had 5 new ones that summer

 

[notpoodle]

I wouldn't smack a horse for moving as it sends very mixed signals eg. horses are often tapped because you do want them to move (out of your space, faster, stop planting etc etc). chances are she hasn't got a clue what it is you want from her and you're both getting frustrated and agitated. there's plenty of ways to teach or remind a horse to stand still when you're getting on board. some people use clicker training (but time it very carefully so she knows what the clicking and rewarding is for!), with mine it was a case of calmly backing her up, then bring her back into position and making her stand. if she moved, we started again. and again ... we spent a few evenings doing nothing but mounting practice. yes, it was tedious but she'll stand now.

 

[Gimp]

My old horse was bad for walking off when mounting. He was predominately a driving horse and was trained to drive first, so I always had someone at his head. When mounting at the block or floor with no-one there he would just saunter off! The method I used with him, which took a few weeks for him to grasp was simply to get off the block, walk him round it and represent him to it, with a clear STAND command. At first it I could be there for half a hour waiting for him to stand to mount, but as the weeks passed he soon grew bored and learnt when he got praised once I was onboard. Im no fluffy bunny, but he had a good nature and on this occassion I didnt feel negative force would be of any benefit. I would personally decide on one method to teach her, and stick to it. Dont expect results overnight, but stick to it as a routine. Evetually my boy became spot on, and only moved off when asked.

 

[Gimp]

also, her ears being back and a general unhappiness and reluctance to go forwards,would raise concerns for me. Ditto others, I would do a full MOT, starting with her back.

 

[domane]

All mine get a treat after we mount and they are so food driven that they stand like rocks because they know what's coming! But it did take some training.... Jack and Joe were both bum-swingers and Jack was also a walker-offer. Albi has been the most compliant. Actually, thinking about it, both Jack and Joe don't like to stand still once you are on board, they want to get going, whereas Albi will stand like a rock until asked to move, wherever we stop.....

The reprimands won't kill her but the fact you felt so bad means you accept that you took your frustration out on her. Does she long-line? Why not LL her around your hack routes and see whether she is still objectionable and grumpy without a rider on her? Then you will know whether it is mental or physical.....

 

[nat17]

I would say get the vet to do a MOT first - not to get the saddle checked again until the horse is.

You cant be sure why she is behaving like that - I had a mare do the same thing and it turned out to be pain - so start with the horse, then equipment. I personally would say that ear's back whilst out riding is pain not attitude but I have not seen her in real life, dont take it for granted until you know its not a pain response.