Yes but lynnemh, you seem to be thinking that spurs and whips are just used to punishing a horse when what they are meant to be used for is clarification. Think about it, the horse is going to better understand the leg aids when spurs are used than when the whole foot is used. The allow the rider to be more precise. I'm not saying that I think everyone should ride with spurs, as I believe that leg stability is needed before you even think about using them. The Grand Prix dressage riders are not using their spurs in a cruel manner at all, the are using them so the horse can easily understand what the rider is asking them to do. I myself use impulse spurs (only in walk, as I do not trust my legs in rising trot yet) in order to teach my pony to move away from pressure, and the difference between behind the girth and on the girth. I certainly do not "boot" my pony in the ribs with them, I use them as kindly as I can, and he is making alot of progress with them. As I am using mine in a remedial manner I am going to take them off when I am confident that he knows what I'm asking for.
BHS says ok to whip & spur horses?!
- Thread starter macavity
- Start date
How does a lungewhip fit in with your views then lynemh??
Or a carrot stick, or a wipwop??? They all serve the same purpose, a prompt for the horse to move out/over.payattention to aids etc the list goes on.
Anytype of stick is just that a stick to use as an aid and the name doesnt change that it is the person using it that determines how it is used.
I honestly do not believe that groundwork solves everything I honestly dont and just ground work with a rope unless you swinging the other end is just you holding on to a horse head. Voice commands are a great thing but a horse does not understand us completely the understand the command as opposed to an action. So without the use of any stick or swinging the end of a rope etc how do you teach a horse what command means what???
Just clarifying the point that stick and spurs ar an AID and it is the people using them that make them cruel. Villyfying an item of tack is pointless and TBH stupid. It has no concious though of its own.
Nikki xxxx
Or a carrot stick, or a wipwop??? They all serve the same purpose, a prompt for the horse to move out/over.payattention to aids etc the list goes on.
Anytype of stick is just that a stick to use as an aid and the name doesnt change that it is the person using it that determines how it is used.
I honestly do not believe that groundwork solves everything I honestly dont and just ground work with a rope unless you swinging the other end is just you holding on to a horse head. Voice commands are a great thing but a horse does not understand us completely the understand the command as opposed to an action. So without the use of any stick or swinging the end of a rope etc how do you teach a horse what command means what???
Just clarifying the point that stick and spurs ar an AID and it is the people using them that make them cruel. Villyfying an item of tack is pointless and TBH stupid. It has no concious though of its own.
Nikki xxxx
in reply, i think you have missed a bit out of my last thread- i clearly state that i am not talking about a reinforcing flick of the whip, ie to reinforce a leg aid. the whole point of maccavity's original post is about what is excessive use of whip or spurs, not whether it is uncorrect to use them at all. and i agree that it is probably worse to kick and bash with your heels, than to use a spur gently.
simple answer- many on here dont. or atleast not over 2'6 unaff courses...i strongly agree with sugarlump and sarahandbronson -
and id love to hear some answers to my previous question?
i dont compete at jumping yet, but i am planning to this winter. atm i dont carry a whip simply because i am only jumping 2' odd and i forget to pick my stick up before i start and cba going back to get it. when i get to any decent level (and deffo when im competing) i will carry one, to prevent stupid arguments- that run out can ruin your chance of been placed, which is the reason your there. i am all for having a good time, but you only compete if you have a chance to win IMO. if you didnt think you had a chance you wouldnt go.
cant add anything, just agreed and thought it worthy of quoting
How does a lungewhip fit in with your views then lynemh??
Or a carrot stick, or a wipwop??? They all serve the same purpose, a prompt for the horse to move out/over.payattention to aids etc the list goes on.
Anytype of stick is just that a stick to use as an aid and the name doesnt change that it is the person using it that determines how it is used.
I honestly do not believe that groundwork solves everything I honestly dont and just ground work with a rope unless you swinging the other end is just you holding on to a horse head. Voice commands are a great thing but a horse does not understand us completely the understand the command as opposed to an action. So without the use of any stick or swinging the end of a rope etc how do you teach a horse what command means what???
Just clarifying the point that stick and spurs ar an AID and it is the people using them that make them cruel. Villyfying an item of tack is pointless and TBH stupid. It has no concious though of its own.
Nikki xxxx
carrot sticks and wip-wops are completely different
in all seriousness i would like an answer to this aswell, its never cleared up on NH threads...
mr kia and me: i think you are taking my posts out of context. however, ie lungewhip; a lungewhip is mainly used as a flick in the air behind the horse, to keep it moving forward. (you can just as easliy make a wheesh sound out of your mouth) i agree that whip and spurs are only as cruel as the person using them. the point of discussion was originally excessive use. and are you saying i am stupid? at least i accurately read the posts i comment on! i clearly state that i am talking about excessive use, and i have not vilified anything or anyone- it is your choice what you do, i am just saying that it is possible for me and others to not use whips or spurs, and i strongly prefer not to.
Y
Yann
Guest
Carrot stick - same as a whip, used (correctly) for same thing and also to apply visual cues and pressure. Can be equally be abused and used to inflict pain or punishment.
Wipwop - If we're talking the bespoke IH ones they're too light and thick to inflict anything more than mild annoyance, it simply isn't possible to hurt a horse with one. Their main purpose is to apply visual pressure, which is why they're bright white.
Read my posts then!!!
I only used your name in the 1st sentence not the whole thing. Did I state on my post that you were stupid??? No I didnt so before you accuse anyone of misreading your posts maybe you could follow your own advice. I can state how you take my posts but if I was calling you stupid your name and the word stupid would be in the same sentence.
Yann I was merely pointing out that all are aids
but wanted clarification on what people though was different between them and a schooling/linging/normal stick. I use my lunging stick as a visual and noise aid as he doesnt get hit with it its to make him move out/forward but just wanted to get what the people who hate sticks thoughts about how they use their aids and explain what they did without using any sticks/similar aids.Nikki xxx
Oh I can actually say that I do now
(sorry am just abit excited that I'm getting back on the circuit now ) My aim is to get placed in a 3ft class by next summer, but am off to do a 2ft3 and 2ft 6 class next sunday, which will be my first time out on my lad. If it goes well then might take him into the 2ft9 I wouldn't go into the ring without my whip. Even if I don't use it, I usually seem to ride better when I have one. No idea why
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I for one would rather see a rider using whips and spurs than booting a horse in the ribs. Try it on yourself - punch yourself in the ribs and then poke yourself in the ribs (not with the same force of the punch of course) and you will find that you feel the poke equally as well but it doesn't hurt as much. Whips and spurs allow you to use less pressure not more. The allow you to give a small aid and concentrate on getting over fences rather than booting a horse that is playing up (and some horses do play up when at competitions)
I fully do not agree with excessive use though!!
Just a little clarification of this quote - not singling you out FnF
I agree with you fully but the BHS does not permit the use of the whip on the flanks. The shoulder or rump is fine but the flanks (behind the girth) are acknowledged as being extremely sensitive so use here is banned.
Another point is that one person may see using a whip as encouragement of forward movement yet another may see it as punishment for not moving forwards... Which is correct?
I fully do not agree with excessive use though!!
Just a little clarification of this quote - not singling you out FnF
I agree with you fully but the BHS does not permit the use of the whip on the flanks. The shoulder or rump is fine but the flanks (behind the girth) are acknowledged as being extremely sensitive so use here is banned.
Another point is that one person may see using a whip as encouragement of forward movement yet another may see it as punishment for not moving forwards... Which is correct?
I'm still interested to know if anyone who doesn't use whips and spurs competes at all. And if so what heights/level?
QR
I think many people don't understand the correct use of the whip/spurs according to the BHS and classical riding, as is evident by some of the more hysterical posts on this thread.
If you think that spurs are designed to 'stab' a horse in the ribs, then you are an idiot with no knowledge of horse training methods from Xenophon to the modern day.
Equally, if you think that 750kg of recalcitrant, hormonally charged horse can be engaged in a rational discussion about your perceived psychological contract with it, or lured with the promise of a 'kind word and a pat' when it has decided to nap, you are up a gum tree.
I carry a whip, and wear spurs. I see them as a REFINEMENT of the aids, rather than an ESCALATION, or, as someone ridiculously suggested, a means of inflicting damage (why would I want to do that, anyway?).
I think many people don't understand the correct use of the whip/spurs according to the BHS and classical riding, as is evident by some of the more hysterical posts on this thread.
If you think that spurs are designed to 'stab' a horse in the ribs, then you are an idiot with no knowledge of horse training methods from Xenophon to the modern day.
Equally, if you think that 750kg of recalcitrant, hormonally charged horse can be engaged in a rational discussion about your perceived psychological contract with it, or lured with the promise of a 'kind word and a pat' when it has decided to nap, you are up a gum tree.
I carry a whip, and wear spurs. I see them as a REFINEMENT of the aids, rather than an ESCALATION, or, as someone ridiculously suggested, a means of inflicting damage (why would I want to do that, anyway?).
I'm afraid the first comment that came to mind was 'get a grip'. It is entirely possible to use the whip immediately after or during bad behaviour, so the horse isn't hurt more than a slight sting but does understand it's wrong. Whether as a reprimand or otherwise, ALL authorities would have issue with either whip or spurs used such that they draw blood, or the whip used repeatedly for no apparent reason - so what's the problem?
Whips and spurs are used effectively, without problems, by the majority of riders who use them. So why should the BHS ban them?
Whips and spurs are used effectively, without problems, by the majority of riders who use them. So why should the BHS ban them?
Hi EML keeping to the point
This is Entirely different to us taking a horse into a competition for our pleasure and then hitting/jabbing it for doing the wrong thing (AFTER the event = punishment). Its not fair and its not appropriate pressure.
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i disagree - this is exactly when I use my whip at a xc comp - to prevent me and the horse having a stop or fall! And yes, if I feel my horse backing off I might well begin with a tap on the shoulder, but if he doesnt respond to that then he would get a smack. If he did stop or run out then he would also get a well-timed smack!
Im sorry but this is very patronising and when you dont ride in certain disciplines yourself I dont think you should be making judgments. What you say is a lovely theory, but when you are sitting on 1/2 a tonne of flight animal, that is about to back off a fixed fence and possibly cause injury to itself or you then then you might change your mind
actually LL, ask anyone who knows me and they will tell you i am one of the most competetive people you will ever meet
HOWEVER i disagree with what you've said here - i would never use my whip out of competetiveness! I only ever use my whip when SJ, XC or JX to keep us both safe!!!When I am competing I have 3 priorities.
1. to keep myself safe
2. to keep my horse safe (lol, sometimes interchangable with 1
)3. to get the best placing I can
Oh I can actually say that I do now
I wouldn't go into the ring without my whip. Even if I don't use it, I usually seem to ride better when I have one. No idea why
hee hee! Good on you!
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V
vimto92
Guest
Really? So in a potentially dangerous situation, the best option is to hit the horse, which could shock or confuse it, or cause it pain which thus discourages thinking & instead encourages the horse simply to react instinctively, such as by spooking or walking backwards, sideways etc. A few calming words and comforting hand on the neck, in my eyes, is more likely to encourage a horse to comply with your wishes & remain calm than anything a whip or spur could ever achieve.
Hi EML keeping to the point
This is Entirely different to us taking a horse into a competition for our pleasure and then hitting/jabbing it for doing the wrong thing (AFTER the event = punishment). Its not fair and its not appropriate pressure.
Wally makes a good point with his observation on the explanation of punishment viz severe.
No one is asking for, or calling, for a blanket ban -that would be ridiculous - someone recently said 'whips should be used like the conductors baton to direct movement and guide tempo'
I use whips as vibrating taps to aid associative learning so that my horses learn the lightest of cues, seat and leg and hand. I admit I have never used a spur and I would never want to or need to. I have competed without either.
I personally find it abhorrent to imagine using a piece of metal to jab a rib - metal on bone surely bruises and hurts some time after the use? Urghhh
I can see where the arguement for the 'woolleys' to be questioned do you compete
BTW Dr Andrew McLean he was also quoted by YOUR HORSE
'competed' inc 3 day eventing for Australia he is the worlds most authoritive figure on behaviour in the trained horse and totally OPPOSED to punishment with whip and spurs (He has called for a ban of the whip in racing - popular guy! - but prepared to speak out! wins my VOTE!) he coaches all over the world and has someof the top SJ/E and dressage riders as pupils - check him out at www.aebc.com.au
Clearly this is a can of worms - but if you were the horse on the recieving end
The alternative arguement is that we think it is OK to HIT horses when they dont perform in competition. This is what the BHS are saying.
Under current rules - Harry Meade could have at Burghley, whipped his horse whilst it was stranded on the fence and whilst it was on the ground - it wasnt performing was it? -how unbelievable is that - OF COURSE I KNOW HE WOULDNT HAVE DONE IT!!
It is not our god given right to ride horses - it is our cherished privledge and one that should never be abused.....advances in training, understanding behaviour should evoke changes in animal welfare including major changes for horses in training and riding and in competition. as called for by Dr Gerd Heuschmann, Dr McLean,ISES, etc.,
Behaviourists say that punishment de-motivates horses in trialing new behaviours and thus reduces performance as they make negative associations with punishment and the environment - so why are we still harping on about having to use our whips and spurs... because thats what we know and we dont like change.
The BHS should be the voice for all of us - and not dismiss the weight of scientific evidence - just because thats what we have always done. Why therfore is the BHS as a charity supporting equine welfare and training - not prepared to at least examine the matter?
More debate and enlightened thought process goes on here with NR than stonleigh it seems!
Dont feel guilty about using whips and spurs - but use them wisely and with appropriate pressure, as the meerkkats say "simples"!
Excellent points, well said!
Absolutely - hence my point earlier about mistrusting the BHS due to their failure to maintain high standards of riding and horse management. The best RS and RI I ever had failed BHS approval repeatedly, yet I learned so much & gained a lot of confidence. No BHS RI since has ever satiated my hunger to learn & seriously dented my confidence. I have now given up having riding lessons because I cannot find a RS that shares the same values, pinciples & attitude towards horses & riding as I.
As for the part in bold - I absolutely agree with this. As someone else has already mentioned, I think that people want spurs & whips to be the best & msot effective method, simply because that is whbat they have al;ways done & it is easiest. People don't like the insecurity of having the beliefs & methods that they have based their horsey lives on to be questioned - to find out that you may have been wrong, or misled, is never desirable. However I think it is extremely inportant to find the truth of how & why horses really think & behave the way they do, and to accept that we may have to start doing things different from the accepted norm; that is, with the use of whips, spurs & the "get up & put up" no-nonsense attitude.
x
What absolute rubbish
The BHS has probably done more for horse welfare in the country than any of the natural horsemanship schools of thought. Just think how far we have come, certainly in the 45 years I have been involved with horses.
And no I'm not anti NH methods, just anti those practitioners who think they are right and everyone else is wrong.
Its threads like these that keep me well away from the NH section of this forum
No method is wrong if it works and does not cause the horse suffering. I douubt if anyone one here would advocate beating an animal.
Without blabbing irrelevantly on about NH
I am not claiming in any way that the BHS are utterly useless & have not done any good to the horse world, just that several of their primary methods, principles & establishments have either let me down or just not worked for me. I am sure that I am not alone! The BHS cannot be the be-all and end-all, that would be far too narrow-minded. As you say, using a more holistic approach and taking what works best from lots of different sources, however, does prove more effective for moi. x
I'm sorry but I don't really agree with this. They may not understand the ideea that they are being punished because they have done something that we don't want them to do, but they do understand that certain behaviours will cause a lack of fitness. If every time they do something "wrong" they get a negative response then they will learn soon enough not to do it as they will want to ensure they have an optimum fitness. It may even get to the point where not to perform a certain behaviour is innate. So while they may not understand our concept of punishment, the point does actually get across.
Why do all the NH people think that spurs and whips are used to beat the s**t out of horses. You have to understand a gadget properly before you put it down.
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