Buddy seat

Chilli said:
1000’s year old horse culture seems to disagree with you, maybe there CV is bigger ;)
Click to expand...

The thing with tradition & culture is that is this day and age now, we are more aware of the 'science' of horses. How they are built.. what we can/cannot get away with doing and so on and what damage can be caused by doing such a thing.

I also know what damage could be caused to a small child should there be a problem.

I personally would not like to use a buddy saddle.
 
Having seen the damage a "normal" saddle can do, when the seat is too long and not level and therefore tipping the riders weight onto the lumbar region... I'm sorry but I don't see how any of the saddles posted on this thread could NOT cause serious, long-term harm to a horse.
 
Denbenj said:
The thing with tradition & culture is that is this day and age now, we are more aware of the 'science' of horses. How they are built.. what we can/cannot get away with doing and so on and what damage can be caused by doing such a thing.

I also know what damage could be caused to a small child should there be a problem.

I personally would not like to use a buddy saddle.
Click to expand...

On the Spanish horse's it's nothing at all or a sqaure pad sitting on the horse's loin?

I was really talking of the danger part, but i find it hard to believe all those spanish people are prepaired to risk there expensive stalions they have spent a lot of time getting to the point where thay can do that.

Treeless saddles are getting more popular and compared to a well fitting tree'd saddle the don't distribute the weight as well.
 
yes, I am surprised they have fully grown adults parked on the back! Saddle or not, however thats another subject..

Levi... are you saying then, putting this amount of pressure on your horse weaker regions, is not going to cause any damage? Am I correct in saying your having a bucking problem with your horse?

Theres lots of traditional things that are phased out as we as a human race learn more.
 
There has been a lot of debate about treeless saddles, and the new designs actually encorporate a gullet and better weight distribution system to avoid some of the problems people were experiencing with pressure points.

However, the point that worries me so much about these "Buddy Seats" is that they are putting the weight of a child behind the last rib. Take a look at the anatomy of the horses back:

BackofHorseLabeled.gif


See how behind the last rib, in the Lumbar region, there is nothing to support the spine. A well fitting saddle distributes the weight of the rider over the horse rib cage, which is equipped and strong enough to handle this weight. But that spot between the last rib and the rump is an extremely weak area as there is nothing supporting the spine.

Now look where this childs weight will be pin-pointed on the horses back:

VC140582l.jpg
 
angelfben said:
There has been a lot of debate about treeless saddles, and the new designs actually encorporate a gullet and better weight distribution system to avoid some of the problems people were experiencing with pressure points.
Click to expand...

That does not change the laws of physics, without a rigid structure (e.g. tree) the wieght can't be as efficently distributed along the saddle and the areas the treeless saddles say compnsate don't distribut the weight as efficently as they are closer to perpendicular that horozontal so less efficent.

Part tree's improve the weight distribution because of the above but only localised where the part tree is so they will never be as good.
 
Denbenj said:
Am I correct in saying your having a bucking problem with your horse
Click to expand...

To be fair, it was a different horse. I think Jack uses 'MyMare' for anything where he needs an absolutely trustwothy horse. It was little Cajun, the baby horse, who went through a major bucking phase. The pictures showed a very short-backed youngster, with a great big western saddle on, and clear daylight under the back. I have a lot of respect for Jack, but for knowledge of saddle fitting, and horses' backs - I'd look elsewhere.
 
Quite apart from the weight bearing issue, if that horse in the photo above tripped or bucked child is either going to be straight off or breaking their nose on the back of mum's head.

What about the good old days of sticking a kid on the front of the saddle?! Even that has to be safer than this.

And as for the weight issue.. Hmm. Depends how heavy your kid is and the weight distribution properties of the buddy saddle. If they spread the weight very well and go onto the pelvis as well..... maybe not so bad. If they are supported entirely on the soft tissue of the lower back and are essentially structureless treeless saddles - VERY BAD. (I dont have time to read up on the buddy saddle right now Im afraid so dont know the answer there).

Ever wonder why there are so many "experts" on horse forums? Eight posters, two with experience on the subject, six with none, and the experts will come forth, If you don't like them, don't use them
Click to expand...
I think there are more concerned horse owners than experts. Besides, by this logic no-one on here would ever be able to give any opinion without first proving their credentials (which would no doubt be slammed as being from the wrong person / school of thought / training technique etc etc etc).

And as for the argument that people have done it for a long time - we have done lots of things in the past which have since been dropped out of attention to the horse's welfare - we no longer put massive knights on horses and send them into battle, we no longer tie horse's heads up in bearing reins, we no longer own one saddle for an entire riding school of horses etc.

That does not change the laws of physics, without a rigid structure (e.g. tree) the wieght can't be as efficently distributed along the saddle and the areas the treeless saddles say compnsate don't distribut the weight as efficently as they are closer to perpendicular that horozontal so less efficent.
Click to expand...
What about the gels and memory foams now used in saddles? I believe Heather Moffett's saddles (to take an example I have experience of) are very good at distributing pressure.

xxx
 
Last edited:
Scenario 1 - Horse panics/bolts - maybe it's stung by a wasp or something...how safe is the child then?
Click to expand...

Can you think of some scenerios' where this might happen with a young child riding a horse on a "lead" or "without". Seem's to me the child might be safer with the reins in the adults hands.

Scenario 2 - Rider (adult) needs to dismount in a hurry....no swinging your leg over the back of the saddle when there's a kiddie behind you.
Click to expand...

I rarely swing my leg over the back of a saddle to dismount, but I would never dismount before my passenger anyway.

Hey Jack, how's it going ? Have you managed to figure out why Cajun was bucking yet ?
Click to expand...

Am I correct in saying your having a bucking problem with your horse?
Click to expand...

I'm not sure where this is coming from. :confused: Are you correct in saying I"m having a bucking problem with my horse? Tell me more.

Amazing that all this interest is being expressed on the western board. Anybody know how long the bars are on a western saddle? ;)

Keep on, keepin on

Jack
 
Kis Vihar said:
Quite honestly, I can't think of anything more dangerous. :eek:

You can't possibly be in control of a horse, even a placid one, and also be 'looking out for' a small child sitting BEHIND you!

......................you couldn't pay me to put one of these on my horses!
Click to expand...
I have to agree with Kis Vihar on this. They do look lovely, and it's a nice idea - but that's about as far as it goes.

I am not going to comment on the issue of suitability for the horse, it's not my area of expertise.
 
levi1739 said:
I rarely swing my leg over the back of a saddle to dismount, but I would never dismount before my passenger anyway.
Click to expand...

...Do you levitate off? Isn't leg over the back of the saddle the standard way to dismount? :confused:

And I think you're being deliberately dumb, Jack. You totally failed to acknowledge the "in a hurry" part. Are you saying you've honestly never had to make an emergency dismount?
 
That does not change the laws of physics, without a rigid structure (e.g. tree) the wieght can't be as efficently distributed along the saddle and the areas the treeless saddles say compnsate don't distribut the weight as efficently as they are closer to perpendicular that horozontal so less efficent.
Click to expand...

I disagree here, about the application of the laws of physics !

The work of a saddle is to distribute weight effectively - I think we all agree on that. However, it's is not a simple problem, like for example, the problem of distributing weight across a flat, rigid surface, such as you might see in an O level physics class. You have to try to distribute a rider's mass, across a constantly moving surface. You have three parts to this - the malleable structures under the rider's bum, and the deformable panels above the horse's back ... and the third part - the interface between them.

Is a rigid or semi-rigid tree the best interface between these different moving surfaces ? How can we be sure ? Even when the tree is flexible - it flexes away from, and back to, one specific surface shape. Which shape should this be ? Think of the horse's back at rest ... and then in motion ... it changes shape all the time when in motion - at which point should we freeze the frame and take our snapshot of his back to use as the model for our tree ? Perhaps his static, 'at rest' shape would work ? But my horse's back, under a rider, in motion, immediately changes shape from his rest position - it comes UP for one thing - and I would hate to build a tree to his DOWN position and hence discourage the UP !

Whatever the answers are - I'm sure tree designers know - one thing's for sure - the tree can only ever 'fit' his back at precisely one point in it's cycle of motion, and will be a misfit at ever other point. Just like a stopped clock that is perfect precisely once a day.

As a physicist, I'd be as likely to dismiss this saddle fit thing by saying 'the laws of physics say so' as to dismiss the three-body problem as 'oh, it's just one more body in the two-body problem' !
 
KateWooten said:
I disagree here, about the application of the laws of physics !

The work of a saddle is to distribute weight effectively - I think we all agree on that. However, it's is not a simple problem, like for example, the problem of distributing weight across a flat, rigid surface, such as you might see in an O level physics class. You have to try to distribute a rider's mass, across a constantly moving surface. You have three parts to this - the malleable structures under the rider's bum, and the deformable panels above the horse's back ... and the third part - the interface between them.

Is a rigid or semi-rigid tree the best interface between these different moving surfaces ? How can we be sure ? Even when the tree is flexible - it flexes away from, and back to, one specific surface shape. Which shape should this be ? Think of the horse's back at rest ... and then in motion ... it changes shape all the time when in motion - at which point should we freeze the frame and take our snapshot of his back to use as the model for our tree ? Perhaps his static, 'at rest' shape would work ? But my horse's back, under a rider, in motion, immediately changes shape from his rest position - it comes UP for one thing - and I would hate to build a tree to his DOWN position and hence discourage the UP !

Whatever the answers are - I'm sure tree designers know - one thing's for sure - the tree can only ever 'fit' his back at precisely one point in it's cycle of motion, and will be a misfit at ever other point. Just like a stopped clock that is perfect precisely once a day.

As a physicist, I'd be as likely to dismiss this saddle fit thing by saying 'the laws of physics say so' as to dismiss the three-body problem as 'oh, it's just one more body in the two-body problem' !
Click to expand...

Seems to me real time is good enough http://www.novel.de/old/nav2/nav_215.htm

I'll get round the different materials and their properties later, parents evening :eek:

Surfice to say i dissagree with you :)
 
Hold on ... I just noticed something ... are people also thinking it's safe to dismount by swinging a leg over the FRONT of a saddle ??? :eek: Seriously ?Basic safety education must be seriously lacking it seems, for some parts of the equestrian community in this country - it's one of the basic safety 'no brainers'. If you swing your right leg, say, over the front of the saddle, this leaves you with your weight inevitably tipped BACKWARDS as you balance atop the horse, just prior to leaping down ... the horse has only to move unexpectedly in any direction and you're going to land on your head and neck :eek:

You dismount by keeping your weight on the left of your horse say, while swinging your right leg over his back. This leaves you in the completely safe position, if your horse should disappear from underneath you, of falling to the ground on all fours like a cat.

I'm gobsmacked that intelligent people haven't thought that through.
 
Surfice to say i dissagree with you
Click to expand...

Doesn't 'Surfice' for me ! What do you disagree with me on ? My claim that it is not a simple problem ? It isn't ! That's why people "keep on, keeping on", working on it.
 
Nice idea but not one I'd be happy to use.

Putting aside the problem of the load bearing on the loins (a non starter in my eyes anyhow) I wouldn't want a child sitting behind me where I couldn't keep an eye or a hold of it.

At least with a lead rein pony you have more of a chance to pull the child off of the pony should anything untoward happen. If the kid is behind you it will have to just hold on and fend for itself.
 
newrider.com
Top Bottom