Bullying or "Firm "Teaching?

OldandNew

OldandNew

Active Member
Mar 29, 2007
157
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28
London
I'd be grateful for other people's opinion on this, particularly as it echoes some threads earlier this week around bullying and rubbish lessons.

To set the scene - I'm officially an OAP (but not in heart or spirit!) and I began riding a few months ago for the first time in my life. In the early days, I had a few lessons with RI "X". I found her quite forceful but I did make some progress with her. Then, by chance, I got switched to RI "Y" and her approach just absolutely chimed with me. She's softly-spoken, corrects me gently and gives me loads of encouragement - which boosts my rather shaky confidence. She's also an exponent of Riding with Your Mind and, as I say, I just respond really well to her.

Recently, I've been trying to challenge myself by not riding the bombproof "plod" all the time. I've ridden another horse a couple of times and yesterday was booked to ride yet another horse. I should explain here that when faced with a new horse, my confidence plummets to zero. Well, to make matters worse yesterday, "Y" was away and I had to have "X" for the lesson. Because I immediately became tense, I made a complete hash of mounting the horse. Then "X" got someone to lead me down the road to the common (I've been allowed to ride on the road for months now by "Y"). I felt like a useless child! Then, when we reached the common, she barked at me "Give me your stick, you won't be needing that!". (Further explanation - "Y" spent weeks convincing me to carry a crop and then actually commended me when I went out and bought my own one).

She then launched into a lecture along the lines of - if I didn't get over these nerves I'd end up hurting myself and the horse. So far I'd been lucky but luck runs out. Maybe I should be "realistic" in that I could only ride one horse. Etc. etc. I felt totally demoralised and consequently was tense for the whole lesson and rode in a totally rubbish way. Ironically, the horse goes like a dream and should be really easy to ride but my rising trot (which has been fine for some time) completely went out the window.

I went home and cried afterwards as I felt so rubbish and useless. I'm wondering if I'm being over-sensitive (do men go home and cry after rubbish lessons - genuine question?) or if I'm beating myself up too much. Should I just be a bit more humble - if I'm honest, there's a bit of me resents being shouted at by someone young enough to be my daughter, or even my grand-daughter. In my everyday and professional life, I'm reasonably confident and assertive but something about learning to ride just brings out all my insecurities. :confused:
 
:eek: Bad instructor!!! I think if I were you, I'd refuse to take lessons with X and if Y isn't available, just not ride that week. It's not worth having your confidence destroyed by an instructor when another one is doing such a good job of building you up.

I hope your next lesson goes better! :)
 
it's not that she is necessarily a bad instructor in herself, some people thrive under that kind of instruction - but her approach clearly doesn't work for you, and there's nothing wrong with that. she 'should' be able to tell this and tone it down for you. equally there is nothing wrong with you telling the person who deals with the bookings that you don't gel with X and that if Y isn't available you would prefer to postpone. there are people i've taught who have requested me specially afterwards,and people who have had one lesson with me and begged for someone else next time!
 
A good instructor is able to size up what teaching methods suits her pupils and adapt her syle accordingly.

No all people are the same, we all learn in different ways.

I specify 1 particular RI when I go to my local school and make it very clear that if she is unable to do the lesson for any reason then I would rather they reschedule the lesson.

I ride at quiet times during the day so I book to fit in with her.

I have found that my lessons over the past 4 months or so have not so much been about technique, more about forming the right state of mind and this needs the right person for me to be able to connect with. :)
 
i think X is in the wrong job!!!! :eek: i was taught by the army's riding instructors (my father was in the army) and even they werent that brutal!! when i took my BHSAI i swore to myself that i would be the kind of instructor that everybody wanted a lesson from,fun,exciting,cheeky yet professional,X should be able to tell that you are not happy with her type of teaching and adapt to a more softer approach,i'd get a lesson with Y and if Y is not available then i wouldnt ride,riding is supposed to be a pleasure not a trauma and dont forget you are PAYING for this pleasure!!!!!!
 
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You are not being over-sensitive at all.

At the RS I used to go to, I was taught by the owner who was pretty much like X from the sound of it. I am not very confident in jumping and in one group lesson, I was on a whizzy little mare and we had a small course in the indoor school which had a tricky corner. I had a couple of refusals and she bullied me into carrying on trying despite the fact I was getting more and more tense and riding worse.

I ended up feeling completely stupid and actually crying in a corner in the lesson (feeling more stupid in front of the other pupils and people watching) and telling her I had lost my confidence. She had no sympathy and her only concession was to lower the jump and make me do it again.

I had recently lost a close friend so was in a fragile state emotionally anyway and her attitude finished me off. That was the last lesson I had with her. A lot of people liked her lessons and she was technically very good but I need a more sympathetic approach.

The RI I have now I have my own horse is lovely. She is firm but very calm and understanding.

I am sure you can ride more than one horse but you need to have the support of a good RI who understands that you need to build your confidence when you ride a new one.
 
'X' is an unprofessional unhappy b*tch. im sorry there is no other word for it. of course you didnt ride well - why? because she had completely taken away all your confidence that you and 'Y' had worked to build up. She also belittled you, told you you were wrong and critiscised you for being nervous.
It could e that she doesnt like 'y' and gets a kick out of contradicting her teaching (have seen that happen before) or that she is just a horrible person. I wouldnt consider her style of teaching acceptable at all. I have had lessons before from peopel who were very tough or very strict and enjoyed it as they pushed me harder but this lady is not doing that she is plain critoscining not constructively ctitiscising!
I would put in a complaint and continue just to ride with 'Y'. If you turn up any day and 'Y' is unavailable then go home until she is please dont settle for more abuse from 'X'. Its your money or time on 'X'.
I teach myself and always try to make sure that people feel at the end of the lesson that they have achieved something however small that achievement might be. I would hate to be the kind of instructor to make people feel small or stupid. I also always consider that if someone is in a lesson and seems quiet, upset or nervous that there may be other factors outside of horse riding making them feel this way and try to make sure that they do have a good time while they are in the lesson
 
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Please don't get yourself so upset over it, it really really isn't worth it - I know, I've cried over bad lessons but it didn't change anything!

You aren't rubbish or stupid, from the sound of it you manage well with Y so it isn't your ability that's the problem.

If I were you I'd chalk this one up to experience & not dwell on it. Phone the school to check whose taking your next lesson & if it isn't Y then cancel, ask when she'll be back & book a lesson for then. Ask them to make a note not to give you X again as a teacher, if you feel awkward just explain that her style didn't suit you & you don't want to use her again.

Not every pupil-teacher relationship works. I've had lessons with people that I'd never use again (even walked out of one group lesson because her approach was so wrong for my then youngster she was scaring him with her body language - v embarrasing but I wasn't paying to have months of work undone) & it isn't necessarily a reflection on their ability as other people get on really well with them. But at the end of the day I pay so I choose!

GIve yourself a big hug from me, dry your tears & wait for Y to come back. Then carry on trying those different horses & let us know how you get on!
 
Yep agree with all the others, why get upset over someone you obviously do not gel with. She has the problem, not you. What an unfortunate manner to teach anybody to do anything.

There probably are people who respond to this type of teaching! I personally would say they had 'some issues' as well:)

Book your lessons with 'Y' and if they ask why, tell them!

Best of luck, heres to happier lessons and a gentler approach.

At 'our age' we don't need to be shouted at to know what we are doing wrong, we invaribly know!!!:)
 
I am sorry to hear this. Because it is not just a question of the teacher. I am going to answer from my own experience.

I too cried after lessons. It is neither necessary nor desirable.
Adults learning a risk activity know nothing to start with and are dependent on a trained instructor for knowledge.
It didn't matter which style instructor you had. You got on with both.
BUT one does need consistency - the lack of consistency and continuity caused you distress - which seemed disproportionate but makes total sense. Even in a non-riding context. If you follow a guide up the mountain, you will trust him. But what happens if he turns round and confesses he doesn't know the way? Or his friend thinks you should be over there on another ridge?

Staff turn over and substitutions in Riding Schools are a problem for all learners but major for older folk like us. That was one reason I went to my current RI. She has her own private yard and I always get her - no one else. If she isnt there you can ask (when you make the appointment) not to ride.

You know from our PMs, that I live near you and can introduce you either to my RI, or to the people and horses at the place where I hack. Both can teach you at weekends. Much of my learning to ride was done out hacking and I have had a succession of nice teachers hacking with me because change over is inevitable.

I am not going to pretend that any school is perfect. We always have bad days. Two weeks ago I had the most dire lesson ever. I couldn't get the mare to move out of halt. But the difference is that, as you get farther on with riding, you can analyse the problems and take decisions for yourself.

At your stage, as with the whip and being led down the road, you are helplessly subject to decision making by others. That is hard for competent adults. When the decision making is not fully explained it leaves you even more at sea.

You don't have to ride. You don't have to enjoy it. You don't have to do it my way or at the same places I go to. %Think it over.

Things I might consider in your position are:- stay at the same school but request lessons only with the RI you got on with so well - the gentler one.

Or take a little holiday from that yard to see what the alternatives are like. Take two or three trial lessons at two or three other yards. You'd get to ride different horses (not good to dislike a new horse) and in a first lesson, you'd be mothered and looked after by the staff.

I'd also think over what constitutes progress in learning to ride. People tend to dwell on definite, visible skills like rising trot or canter. But riding competence (which would tune with your character) may be much harder to define.
Learning to ride may be (as my OH claims) closely related to the number of hours one has sat on a horse. He has returned from the USA greatly improved though all he did was sit on a horse and walk in line.
Counting up his riding hours (what he calls Saddle Time), he has had 10 and a half hours (14 lessons) with our RI and 11 hours trail riding. That is 21 and a half hours on a horse.
How many hours have you ridden so far?
I know you cant afford to ride every week, and have gaps between lessons, so are you expecting too much of yourself?
It is possible to list all the negatives my OH cant do. He hasn't learned how to do rising trot yet. You talk about difficulty mounting: he still has someone hold the horse for him. He has never been to a gym in his life. He was a cox, not an athlete.
So if you are counting mile stones, you have done better than he. But he is happy. Because he enjoys it, imperceptibly he is absorbing the feel of being about horses and visibly getting less helpless every week both in the saddle and on the ground.
So yes, it seems that men don't cry about riding. And the things they cant do. If he didn't enjoy it he wouldnt go. We have an RI who once said to me that riding should be like eating an ice cream. Delicious.

But you may want riding to be a sport? To attest to your fitness? In which case you'd do best to grit your teeth and go on learning at one of the high powered, high achieving yards in this area, where aspirations are high and older riders like me only lower the tone of the place.
 
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I agree with what has already been said - you pay the instructor's wages, so you should be able to select the one that you want. You don't have to be rude about X, just say (as already suggested) that you feel you gel better with Y. If the riding school doesn't understand this, find another that does.

What you need is positive encouragement not negative comments. Don't be downhearted - focus on the better lessons.
 
Don't have that instructor again, she is not right for you. Sometimes "firm" teaching works for some people, but belittling and bullying pupils is NOT acceptable, ever. Stick with the one you like, if she had you riding other horses and riding them well, then she obviously made a difference to you and your confidence levels. In time you will learn to keep your confidence when the situation changes (ie different horse, different instructor, different place), but for now stay with the instructor who helps to nuture your confidence.
 
I'm sorry, I don't think it's a question of style or personality: it just looks like bad, negative teaching to me.

My current RI is a bit of a bully - along the lines of "go on, of course you can do it, you'll be fine', 'don't let her make the decisions, you're the rider ...', 'what have you stopped for, you're supposed to be doing rising trot/sitting trot', 'what are you fannying about for, just get her to canter;. But that is a style; if you really don't want to do something or you want a jump lowered, he doesn't try to force you, and, most important of all, he doesn't put you down. That's the most unforgiveable thing. When I've confessed to being nervous, I've got 'Oh, god, you're not windy about that tiny jump, are you' but it's not persona or a put-down; the assumption is that everyone's the same and everyone can ride. And he does tell you when you do things well.

So no, it's not "firm teaching", it's not a style of teaching, and it is bullying. I agree with everyone who said you just refuse to have lessons with her again. Your confidence is too precious to risk with someone like that.
 
I have been in a very similar situation to this, but it was a group lesson when I was humiliated. This person was the OWNER of the riding stables where I ride, so I have not been back since. I will have to go back eventually, but when I do I am not having lessons with this person again. I think you should insist on what you want, and don't put up with a teacher that you do not get on with. Its the same with learning to drive a car, if you and the instructor do not get on, you would change instructors (I did when I was learning)

I really hope this helps, and I hope you find a kinder instructor soon. :D
 
OldandNew - haven't read anybody elses replies so here's my thoughts:
Stupid stupid horrible instructor - how dare she shatter your confidence like that? No bloomin wonder your trot went to bits - you'd be so wound up. Of course you shouldn't stick to just riding the one horse - its good to ride others but each one is different and you need to build confidence slowly.
I am really sorry to hear you went home feeling like that - nobody should be able to do that to us but indeed they can - last year somebody made me feel as tho I shouldn't be riding, never mind own my own horse - I don't think OH has seen me cry like that for years.
How dare she take your crop off you! Well, ok, perhaps she thought you didn't need it, but there are ways of saying / doing these things - she was obviously blunt about it.
And what a stupid thing to do, saying things like you'll have to get over your nerves etc. It might have been constructive to comment on getting over nerves and building confidence perhaps after the lesson, but during the lesson / hack she ought to have tried to reassure you and help build your confidence.
I am quite angry for you! I hope you don't use this particular teacher again, she does not deserve to have you as a pupil, afterall you are paying for this.
 
Don't tolerate this a second longer! This is unprofessional and unkind. Yes some instructors are more forceful than others but it doesn't sound as if this is all it is.And anyway you are paying and you want an instructor suitable FOR YOU. Tell the school you don't want to be taught by her any more and if they are difficult find another school. There are plenty out there and they want your business. I tolerated someone like this and nearly ended up stopping riding and giving my pony away.
 
I won't reiterate what's been said above, it seems to be pretty unanimous that you're not being oversensitive here! I gave up on my first attempt at learning as an adult because of a RI with a taste for belittling and humiliation, and i regret the time i wasted before looking for a new place to learn, because i thought everywhere would be the same and i was too thin-skinned to put up with it.

Walk away from there right now unless you can guarantee not to have to deal with this witch again. Not all riding instructors are like this, and life's too short to be crying in the bath after a lesson (oh yes, i've been there too!)

And big NR {{{{{hugs}}}}} for having to put up with such a horrible experience.
 
You're in an excellent position to be the one that calls the shots - as, you are the one that's paying for the lesson. I know it takes some people a lot of guts, the next time she is rude to you, let her know just where she stands, get off the horse, hand it back and just leave. Take your business elsewhere.
When you find another RS give them a ring, or go and see them, tell them exactly what you're looking for out of your riding lessons. Also, if possible ask to meet the person(s) who will be teaching you. I'm sorry you've all this rubbish thrown at you by RIs. Hope everything works out for you.
 
Thank you, thank you............

.......to everyone for your kind and encouraging words. I still had a heavy heart this morning but feel much better now. My next lesson is definitely booked with my "gentle" RI and I am resolved that I will not accept lessons from anyone else from now on. Thank you also for reminding me that I am paying for this (and rather handsomely too!)

Skib, as always, you raise some salient and interesting points. Yes, it's true that I can't ride as often as I would like. Finance is part of it, but it's more because the RS only does private lessons on weekdays and I still work full-time. I've counted up my actual lessons (saddle hours) and they number 16. I've had a lot going on in the rest of my life recently, but come the Autumn I shall definitely check out the schools we have discussed.

As regards mounting, I don't have any physical problems - but yesterday it was a psychological problem because I was tense anyway and was aware of her critical gaze. In retrospect, I realise the mounting block wasn't even in the right place. Normally, I would hold the reins in one hand and move the block to a better place with my other hand. But yesterday I was already too "addled" and I didn't. (Why?)

No I don't want riding to be a sport. I just want it to be a pleasurable pastime and achieve a reasonable degree of being a safe and competent rider. It's true that I'm reasonably fit for my age but I'm no athlete and I do worry about falling off at my age! I doubt it would have crossed my mind had I started learning as a child.

It occurs to me that this learning to ride business brings up many deep-seated emotional blocks and hang-ups that learning other skills doesn't. (Or is it just me?). My "gentle" instructor runs a workshop called "Riding Inside Out" which addresses some of these psychological issues and again I intend to do this workshop in the Autumn.

Well, I'm off on holiday tomorrow so intend to put this bad lesson behind me. No doubt I'll be sidling into an internet cafe in the next few days as I'm now totally addicted to this forum!!! :)
 
You wondered about men's reaction. I don't know about all of them, but I can tell you about two opposites. My father, who didn't have the strongest ego, but who loved flying a sailplane more than anything, had a bad experience when doing the qualification lesson for his advanced solo license. The instructor was something like the nasty one you encountered, and my father, who had done really well up to that point with other teachers, and was considered quite competent by all of them, never sailplaned again, he was so humiliated and hurt by the intense put-downs. So he lost out on continuing with one of his chief pleasures in life, because he let this jerk get the better of him.

By contrast, my husband (whom everyone considers a very nice guy, and usually "suffers fools gladly") says he would have reacted by stopping part way through the lesson and saying to himself "I don't need this kind of s..t!", and to the instructor, "This just isn't working," and terminating the lesson before any more damage was done, and never accepting another lesson with that teacher.

So that's two male reactions. I hope so much that you do not choose the first, because it sounds like you are on the road to having many years of good riding experience.

I have advanced training in psychology, and worked for years doing psychological evaluations, and counseling. It sounds to me like this woman has serious personality problems. Unfortunately, this kind of individual is often drawn into teacing positions where they can be obnoxiously authoritarian and hostile and get paid for it. The fact that some people are able to learn from this style doesn't make it good teaching. I used to teach Educational Psychology at a state university, teaching future teachers how to teach. This instructor is the kind of person any educational psychology textbook would use as an illustration of how NOT to teach.
 
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