Define the line between "playing" and "sawing"??? Please!

FelineWolf

FelineWolf

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Sep 16, 2007
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North Devon
Right, so I have read many times that sawing is NOT a good way to get the horse on the bit, essentialy because, well, it doesn't! I understand that the round shape comes from the horse working correctly from its back end, with tha in mind, this is my trouble:
We were working on getting the horses onto the bit in my lesson last night, getting them working forward nicely, seeking the contact, then gradually encouraging their back end to come underneath them using a combination of bending and half halting. Now the second half of this technique I'm ok with (I'm not very GOOD at it, but I understand the concept behind it ;) ) what is confusing me a bit is the first bit, in encouraging the horse to seek a contact our RI was instructing us to "play" with the bit. Now what she was doing looked terribly like sawing to me (allbeit, not as jerkily as I've seen some do it) but it seems unlikely to me that she would be encouraging sawing considering her insistence that tugging the horse's head into position would create nothing but an annoyed horse and of course would not do anything to encourage working from the back legs.
Am I getting myself wound up about nothing? Where is the line between "playing with the bit" and "sawing" at the horse's mouth?
 
Playing is clenching your fingers gently as if you were squeezing a rubber ball whilst holding the reins.

Sawing is when your whole arm/hand moves as you pull the reins back with force.

What I was taught anyway. :)

nikki xxxxx :p
 
See this is the thing, our instructor teaches that generally the line of the rein shouldn't stop at the hands, but at the elbows, so movements should come from there, hence why it looked like sawing, not saying that was the excuse she gave, that's just why I think it looks like sawing.
She said that sawing you don't give with the hands at all, whereas with this you were gradually giving and removing contact in an attempt to get the horse seeking it himself.
Of course I may be getting myself confused (I'm basically completely re-learning how to ride having been taught for so long in the school of "kick for go, pull for stop"!!!) and be thinking of when she was doing the bending. It all looks quite cacky at the moment, but I'm sure she's exagerating most of it so we can see more clearly what she's doing.
 
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showjumper-zoe said:
Ditto. And the horse generally wont look very happy and his mouth wont be soft.
Click to expand...

Hmmm, well, when she jumped on my horse he didn't look happy at first (cos I had been letting him get away with being lazy and she wasn't lol) but as she started working on his shape he seemed to chirp up. His ears came forward and he was nicely bringing his head down to seek the contact, not tucking it in though, just moving downwards as if you were waving a carrot below his nose. Is that pretty much what you want in preparation for asking them to work on the bit?


(I will re-iterate here, just to save me doing it later, that she wasn't sayign this would get the horse on the bit in isolation, there was then lots of half halting and a great big "lift squeeze" as she calls them to ask them to bring their back legs underneath)
 
FelineWolf said:
See this is the thing, our instructor teaches that generally the line of the rein shouldn't stop at the hands, but at the elbows, so movements should come from there, hence why it looked like sawing. QUOTE]

Thats true but the elboes shouldn't move so it looks like sawing, imagine someone pouring water out of a watering can into you're shoulders, the water should flow all the way down through your arm down throught the elbows and down the reins and out through the bit. The water should flow smoothlylike this (sorry my lines arn't strate I cannot draw on a pc)
kyrak.jpg

not like this
kyrakk.jpg

sorry that is a crap explanation:o

Ignore me
Click to expand...
 
the horses head shouldnt move from sode to side really. slight twitches are ok but not constant.

God its harder to describe than it is to ride it lol!!!

Nikki xxx
 
Oh no, now I'm really confuzzled!!! :eek:
Gah, I'm too sleepy to understand these things lol I need to come back and re-read in the morning!
She was telling my sister and I to imagine we had bricks hanging from out elbows, really bring them down, but then again we both have the habit of locking out our elbows and riding with practically straight arms, so maybe it felt like our elbows were more bent than they really were (like when you feel like you're leaning back but actually you're sat right up straight) ?
I'm probably not doing a very good job at explaining myself here. She did say that we shouldn't actually "ride" like this all the time, that what she was teaching, the movement and position, were just a way of encouraging the horse into a rounded shape.

I think I need more sleep (I have been working the fireworks desk at Tescos a lot this week, it's flaming hard work with very awkward customers!)
 
This woman does compete her horses to quite a high level (mostly dressage as far as I know) and comes with a lot of reccomendations, so I would have thought that she's teaching me the correct way to ride, she's an absolute stickler for position! But having come out of such a bad school, thinking it was good for so long I have become really paranoid!

By the way, thank you for battling through my posts and trying to help me, I know I can't be making a whole lot of sense, but I really do appreciate it!
 
I would consider 'playing' with the bit to be a squeeze of the reins with the fingers, like nik-n-kia said, like squeezing a sponge. I think there are several schools of thought about this but I tend to do it only with one rein, usually the inside rein to encourage a little bend around a circle etc. I don't move my elbows, although I try and keep my arms relaxed. I do a squeeze on both reins only for slowing down.

I would say 'sawing' is a similar movement but with the main difference being squeezing with both hands one after the other and usually using more force and moving the elbows back.

If you're worried about sawing I would suggest playing with one rein only (the inside rein seems easier to me) and keeping a steady contact with the other.

Sounds like your RI is teaching you the correct way to get a horse on the bit, which is great - focus really has to be on creating the energy from the hindquarters and containing it with the rein and letting the horse come on the bit itself...although must confess in moments of frustration it is all too easy to take a death grip on the reins :D
 
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Think of talking with your hands..talk to the horse, a bit of bend please, now not so fast. Create the energy with your legs and then collect it gently in your hands before it falls out through the horses nose.

If the horse is swinging its head from side to side (my personal hate) you are not talking/feeling but sawing no matter how gently you do it.
 
OK, thanks for the explanations, I don't think she was sawing then because the horse's head wasn't moving from side to side :)
Groovy, I just have to focus on getting it right myself now!!! I never imagined I would have this many problems with my riding, but I suppose I should just take it as a positive that they're finally being sorted out! :)
 
I have been taught to ask a horse to go on the bit by 'playing' with the outside rein only. This is basically squeezing the rein with your fingers like a sponge. I would define 'sawing' as someone who is pulling the bit through the horses mouth with alternate reins. I have seen afew 'experienced' riders do this at my yard and it looks terrible and often results with a horse putting his head up in the air to avoid the contact.
 
"playing" with the bit is simply a gentle give and take with the fingers on the inside rein, once the horse softens to the inside bend (rein), you reward by softening your hand but keeping an elastic feeling (like the rubber ball someone else mentioned) However, you can't just play with the bit and expect results, it's a whole bunch of things working in conjunction with each other, so as you are taking with the reins you are also asking the horse to step under himself, forward and through his back with your inside leg, while holding his haunches and shoulder in the line of bend with your outside leg and outside rein. Sometimes you will see the bit sliding through the mouth a little as well, which is ok.

Sawing, how I define it, is an unforgiving "left-right-left-right" pull on both reins while applying hard leg and aggresive seat that basically gives the horse no choice but to give and tuck it's head in (because it HURTS) So you've got an "outline" on the outside but the horse is not relaxed through his back, is not accepting contact and his neck is probably tense. You will often see a side to side head wagging even if you can't see the riders brutish hands and legs pounding the horse into submission. (some riders are masters at covering this up)

There are some instances when professionals will use this "see-saw" in problem horses that have completely shut down to the riders attempts to encourage an outline, but this is done only in extreme cases, when all other avenues have been exhausted and it is done by a rider who knows exactly what they are doing and when to stop, so it does have some proper use I suppose, I still don't like to see it though.
 
I don't like the word 'playing' as it suggests more movement than you actually need.

The MOST movement from you is a gentle curling and uncurling of the fingers. There shouldn't be ANY backwards movement of your arm/hands and the movement should be pretty much invisible to those watching. You can use this squeezing movement on either reins or on one after the other until the horse relaxes. As soon as they do relax you should stop doing it though.

A good exercise to try is to get a bit attached to reins, get someone to hold the reins and take up a contact. Get them to gently curl and uncurl their fingers and see a) how it feels and b) how much rein just that small movement gives. Then get them to saw and see how that feels!
 
Well, I was put on Sid on Thursday, a lovely horse who is only really ridden by our instructor so he has all the right buttons and is super responsive! I did lots of circle work, practising getting him to bend nicely and using my weight aids. I'm not entirely certain what it was I did but he was bringing his head down beautifully, and I can't have been sawing because I was actually keeping the reins very long in an attempt to steer and bend him with my legs. I was using the "squeezing" and finger playing that you described and it seemed to help a lot. Though above all the one thing that Sid was teaching me was where to put my legs! I have a terrbile habbit of clamping with my knees and not allowing him through, when I did this he'd slow down and his head would start coming up again, when I relaxed my knees he'd start going forward properly and his head would go down, he seemed very relaxed, just happily going.
I didn't make any great attempts to move him from that point onto the bit, because tbh I was just happy in achieving getting a nice steady trot on a circle with a good bend, we even did a really nice canter, though now my cantering is my worst pace as my position/communication in walk and trot has improved so much :D (not sure whether to be proud of that or not, I'll take it as a good thing!!!)

I'm feeling so happy about this, the pony club kick has gone pretty much completely out of the window now and I'm gradually loosing the urge to be holding a really tight contact all the time (I appreciate that a strong contact has its place, but these horses sure as hell don't need it!) My big step now is to take these things on when riding ALL horses, not just when I have my RI stood there watching!
 
Playing, someone watching from the side wouldn't be able to say for sure if you are moving your fingers or not.

Sawing, the corners of the horses mouth are moving because of the force your hands are putting to it.

Playing is softening, sawing is forcing.

Nina x
 
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