My fat cob is a brilliant doer. He is in a half acre orchard hardly any grass. Full haynets at night and hasnt lost any weight since i got him in November.I was recomended to reward him after work ( light work)with a handful of pony nuts, couldnt get any so got grass nuts.Anyway cut to the chase he has had them about 3 times and he has changed personality, dragging me when leading ( thought we had got over that), lunging for grass, stomping about, bitey, grumpy etc etc not picking up feet for picking out, really quite stroppy. If this is his reaction on a handful of grass nuts every other day god help me in spring. Any advise please.
do grass nuts make horses mental??
- Thread starter allthegearnoidea
- Start date
hmm, i can see why your horse's behaviour has changed. horses fed by hand - in particular (sorry to prejudice) good doers who tend to be greedier thanh other horses who are poor doers or fussy feeders - easily succum to bribery, and over-use or wrong use of this causes them to 'beg' for food. this is because he has not actually learnt that food is a reward, not a gift to be given on demand (which is how it is now).
the way to stop this behaviour is simply to no longer give your horse treats by hand; it is not necessary and there are other, more efficient ways of rewarding your horse for good work as a thank you, including a loving stroke and kind, soothing words as well as a period on a long rein/release of the inside rein, all of which work very well.
as for the weight loss, in order to lose weight your cob needs to be using up more calories than he is eating. i strongly suggest that you exercise him as much as possible - even a 20 minute stint on the lunge or a few minutes in the menage whilst you muck out. a 20 minute is the equivelant of 1 hour schooling, so use your time well. could you ask - even pay - someone else (such as your YO, RI, friend or fellow livery owner) to ride him for you if and when you can't?
slow work (aerobic) burns fat, whilst fast work (anaerobic) improves fitness. both need to be used isn ideal amounts and as he gets fitter you can introduce longer work. include as much hillwork as you can; road work is not really that important and if you feel worried or frightened then don't bother, it really isn't worth the bother.
turn him out as much and for as long as possible; even if, like i said, it's a mere 10 inutes or so in the menage while you are mucking out, so that he can let off steam.
you will probably find that, as he fittens, your horse gains more energy and stamina yet loses more weight. the work and an ideal feeding programme will help to keep his mind occupied, something for him to think about - as well a mind-stimulating toys in the stable to prevent boredom and keep him busy - will help to ensure that his behaviour remains good.
feeding-wise: you need to be feeding a high fibre, low starch and low sugar diet, alongside ad-lib water, adequate amounts of vitamins and minerals, and plenty of fibre (never underestimate this; it is essential to maintain gut health). this can be gained from a diet purely of grass, hay (preferably soaked or steamed to lessen its nutritional value and to keep it as dust-free as possible. haylage is too nutritional for good doers needing to lose weight) and a feed balancer or vitamin and mineral supplement.
this will provide plenty of fibre and a balanced diet low in sugar and starch, containing no cereals.
feeding nuts, cubed or any extra feed will only be used by your horse to gain weight, rather than for energy.
i recommend this daily diet to maintain optinum health in your horse, provideing all the nutrients he needs without the calories.
AM
400g (or 100g/100kg bodyweight) = A feed balancer such as Blue Chip Original/Lami-Light or Baileys Lo-Cal, all designed with good doers and laminatics in mind. these are usually fed in cube form.(alternatively you could feed a vit&min supplement - such as Global Herbs Globalvite or FeelGood 30 Vitamins and Minerals, usually fed in powder form. you will need to mix this in with a VERY small amount of chaff - not even a handful - such as Dengie Hi-Fi lite or Good Doer, a balancer is more ideal).
succulents (fruit and vegetables)
split this into one or two feds each day.
PM
1 big haynet = either one with very small holes, or one over another. this will keep hi occupied for hours yet won't mean he'll be without forage for hours.
here are some tips:
- tie your cob's haynet on the opposite side of the stable to his water bucket/s so that he has to walk across to each, using up precious calories.
- have your hay analysed for free by saracen horse feeds, or grass for £20. for £5 dodson and horrel will analyse your hay and £30 your grass.
- add a digestive enhancer to your horse's daily feed to amke sure he utilises the nutrients in his diet most efficiently. you may well even find that he becomes healthier-looking and chirpier.
- feed to balancer via a trickle-feeding toy so that it lasts longer, stimulates your hoprse's brain and keeps him occupied for much longer, rather than have him staring at a barely empty bucket.
- make sure that he is eating at least 1.5% of his bodyweight in forage each day (so at least 6-7.5kg).
good luck!
if you have any more queries, please PM me!
the way to stop this behaviour is simply to no longer give your horse treats by hand; it is not necessary and there are other, more efficient ways of rewarding your horse for good work as a thank you, including a loving stroke and kind, soothing words as well as a period on a long rein/release of the inside rein, all of which work very well.
as for the weight loss, in order to lose weight your cob needs to be using up more calories than he is eating. i strongly suggest that you exercise him as much as possible - even a 20 minute stint on the lunge or a few minutes in the menage whilst you muck out. a 20 minute is the equivelant of 1 hour schooling, so use your time well. could you ask - even pay - someone else (such as your YO, RI, friend or fellow livery owner) to ride him for you if and when you can't?
slow work (aerobic) burns fat, whilst fast work (anaerobic) improves fitness. both need to be used isn ideal amounts and as he gets fitter you can introduce longer work. include as much hillwork as you can; road work is not really that important and if you feel worried or frightened then don't bother, it really isn't worth the bother.
turn him out as much and for as long as possible; even if, like i said, it's a mere 10 inutes or so in the menage while you are mucking out, so that he can let off steam.
you will probably find that, as he fittens, your horse gains more energy and stamina yet loses more weight. the work and an ideal feeding programme will help to keep his mind occupied, something for him to think about - as well a mind-stimulating toys in the stable to prevent boredom and keep him busy - will help to ensure that his behaviour remains good.
feeding-wise: you need to be feeding a high fibre, low starch and low sugar diet, alongside ad-lib water, adequate amounts of vitamins and minerals, and plenty of fibre (never underestimate this; it is essential to maintain gut health). this can be gained from a diet purely of grass, hay (preferably soaked or steamed to lessen its nutritional value and to keep it as dust-free as possible. haylage is too nutritional for good doers needing to lose weight) and a feed balancer or vitamin and mineral supplement.
this will provide plenty of fibre and a balanced diet low in sugar and starch, containing no cereals.
feeding nuts, cubed or any extra feed will only be used by your horse to gain weight, rather than for energy.
i recommend this daily diet to maintain optinum health in your horse, provideing all the nutrients he needs without the calories.
AM
400g (or 100g/100kg bodyweight) = A feed balancer such as Blue Chip Original/Lami-Light or Baileys Lo-Cal, all designed with good doers and laminatics in mind. these are usually fed in cube form.(alternatively you could feed a vit&min supplement - such as Global Herbs Globalvite or FeelGood 30 Vitamins and Minerals, usually fed in powder form. you will need to mix this in with a VERY small amount of chaff - not even a handful - such as Dengie Hi-Fi lite or Good Doer, a balancer is more ideal).
succulents (fruit and vegetables)
split this into one or two feds each day.
PM
1 big haynet = either one with very small holes, or one over another. this will keep hi occupied for hours yet won't mean he'll be without forage for hours.
here are some tips:
- tie your cob's haynet on the opposite side of the stable to his water bucket/s so that he has to walk across to each, using up precious calories.
- have your hay analysed for free by saracen horse feeds, or grass for £20. for £5 dodson and horrel will analyse your hay and £30 your grass.
- add a digestive enhancer to your horse's daily feed to amke sure he utilises the nutrients in his diet most efficiently. you may well even find that he becomes healthier-looking and chirpier.
- feed to balancer via a trickle-feeding toy so that it lasts longer, stimulates your hoprse's brain and keeps him occupied for much longer, rather than have him staring at a barely empty bucket.
- make sure that he is eating at least 1.5% of his bodyweight in forage each day (so at least 6-7.5kg).
good luck!
if you have any more queries, please PM me!
Just got to say i dont ever feed him from my hand the grass nuts go in a rubber feed bucket and it is literally a handful.
He gets 2 large haynets with small holes each night, and every morning they are empty. He is exercised every other day either 20 mins lunging, 20 mins schooling, or small hack out.Cant do to much as im re-schooling him following purchase from a very dubious dealer!!!!
I was told not to let him get to good grass, or feed him anything but hay and grass.As anything else didnt suit him.I did once try sweet meadow mix low cal just because i thought i should feed him something. But im fast realising he literally can survive on nothing.
I was told not to let him get to good grass, or feed him anything but hay and grass.As anything else didnt suit him.I did once try sweet meadow mix low cal just because i thought i should feed him something. But im fast realising he literally can survive on nothing.
however every horse needs vitamins and mienrals; these are not provided by grass and hay alone, an additional supplement must be fed.
i also recommend that you weight taoe him every 2 weeks, though he may actually gain weight if he goes through a good fitness programme.
and his muscles develop better.
even if the nuts are fed by the bucket, i really wouldn't bother as they do not provide sufficient amounts of nutrients that your cob needs, but do give him calories that he doesn't need.
once your horse has lost all the excess weight, you can begin to introduce a fast-energy release feed to give him energy without weight gain.
weight loss now also means that he can afford to put a bit back on again in the coming spring and summer.
i also recommend that you weight taoe him every 2 weeks, though he may actually gain weight if he goes through a good fitness programme.
and his muscles develop better.
even if the nuts are fed by the bucket, i really wouldn't bother as they do not provide sufficient amounts of nutrients that your cob needs, but do give him calories that he doesn't need.
once your horse has lost all the excess weight, you can begin to introduce a fast-energy release feed to give him energy without weight gain.
weight loss now also means that he can afford to put a bit back on again in the coming spring and summer.
Hey Jo, Grass nuts shouldn't make him loopy, I feed them to my rising 4 year old and my crazy anglo arab to no ill effect - having said that sometimes these things can have different results with different horses.
Puzzles is right that on a basic diet such as your horses a supplement of vitamins and minerals would be benificial, personally I would stay away from balancers if he is that good doer (I just wouldn't want to put any more calories in if I could avoid it, and although these are low cal they do still have some in), I would probably opt for either a block that contains all the supplements he needs - a rockies block might be fine for him (but if he won't lick it its no use
) or I think it is spillers that make a treat specially for good doer pasture kept horses, you just feed 3 or 4 a day and that contains all the nutrients he would need - I found them great with our old cob and you can still put them in a bucket 
You could also try mixing oat straw in with his hay, its like celery for people - fills you up but no calories and with horses it is important to have something in their tummies all the time so its a good option for real fatties
Re his personality change, it could be that he is hungry - with so little grass available and the 2 nets at night are giving him enough calories but are maybe not keeping his tummy full enough and he has started to associate you with food arriving
Esp as the temp has dropped again.
If you can get some Oat straw you could give him this ad lib as it will keep his tummy full but not add to his weight, its just high fibre roughage
Puzzles is right that on a basic diet such as your horses a supplement of vitamins and minerals would be benificial, personally I would stay away from balancers if he is that good doer (I just wouldn't want to put any more calories in if I could avoid it, and although these are low cal they do still have some in), I would probably opt for either a block that contains all the supplements he needs - a rockies block might be fine for him (but if he won't lick it its no use
) or I think it is spillers that make a treat specially for good doer pasture kept horses, you just feed 3 or 4 a day and that contains all the nutrients he would need - I found them great with our old cob and you can still put them in a bucket You could also try mixing oat straw in with his hay, its like celery for people - fills you up but no calories and with horses it is important to have something in their tummies all the time so its a good option for real fatties
Re his personality change, it could be that he is hungry - with so little grass available and the 2 nets at night are giving him enough calories but are maybe not keeping his tummy full enough and he has started to associate you with food arriving
Esp as the temp has dropped again.If you can get some Oat straw you could give him this ad lib as it will keep his tummy full but not add to his weight, its just high fibre roughage
To be honest, I would agree with Jessey - all the behaviour you describe is what I would expect from a horse that is hungry - you suspect the grass nuts are making him fizzy, but I would suggest that on the contrary, he's not getting enough fibre to keep him feeling full.
Dragging you to grass, being generally grumpy and uncooperative? Horse's brain entirely occupied with getting more fibre to keep warm Have you ever been really hungry and not able to concentrate on anything other than getting food? If so you'll appreciate how he might be feeling (my OH goes like this - if he's hungry I know not to ask him any questions until he's had something to eat 
).
Jessey's idea of the oat straw is good - but experiment - if your hay is not too high in sugar, give him some just before you want to handle him, and see if the behaviour improves...
Dragging you to grass, being generally grumpy and uncooperative? Horse's brain entirely occupied with getting more fibre to keep warm
Have you ever been really hungry and not able to concentrate on anything other than getting food? If so you'll appreciate how he might be feeling (my OH goes like this - if he's hungry I know not to ask him any questions until he's had something to eat ).Jessey's idea of the oat straw is good - but experiment - if your hay is not too high in sugar, give him some just before you want to handle him, and see if the behaviour improves...
Totally echoe Jessey
He does sound like hes acting like a hungry cob! ( i'm in no way saying your starving him tho!!) Like others have said he needs some nutrients ect...but he needs plenty of bulk/forage to. With him only being on a 1/2 acre he will gorge 2 haynets in know time atall, and hes basically demanding more.
Its a good idea to, to always ensure a horse has something to eat at all times even if just grazing/hay. Horses are desgined to be trickle feeders and it can cause all sorts of problems if they are left with nothing to digest..including stomach ulcers ect... ( i'm sure someone will explain all the technical bile stuff etc !!) this can lead to behavioural problems to.
As far as what horses I have...
I have a 15.1 Cob hes an 'ok ish doer in summer, but came to me in oct/nov quite undernourrished but not thin'
hes in a 2acre paddock with luckily brilliant grass still! however I do keep him topped up he has some etc hay chucked in every morning ( about 1/2bale) and a couple of ect flakes at night if all gone
He has 2large overflowing! scoops of Alfa-A oil, and 1 scoop of Build up cubes with one scoop ( pre soaked) of speedi beet and that all gets split between 2 feeds every day.
This suits my horse...but of course there all different.
I'm sure you will find the right balance for your horse x
He does sound like hes acting like a hungry cob! ( i'm in no way saying your starving him tho!!) Like others have said he needs some nutrients ect...but he needs plenty of bulk/forage to. With him only being on a 1/2 acre he will gorge 2 haynets in know time atall, and hes basically demanding more.
Its a good idea to, to always ensure a horse has something to eat at all times even if just grazing/hay. Horses are desgined to be trickle feeders and it can cause all sorts of problems if they are left with nothing to digest..including stomach ulcers ect... ( i'm sure someone will explain all the technical bile stuff etc !!) this can lead to behavioural problems to.
As far as what horses I have...
I have a 15.1 Cob hes an 'ok ish doer in summer, but came to me in oct/nov quite undernourrished but not thin'
hes in a 2acre paddock with luckily brilliant grass still! however I do keep him topped up he has some etc hay chucked in every morning ( about 1/2bale) and a couple of ect flakes at night if all gone
He has 2large overflowing! scoops of Alfa-A oil, and 1 scoop of Build up cubes with one scoop ( pre soaked) of speedi beet and that all gets split between 2 feeds every day.
This suits my horse...but of course there all different.
I'm sure you will find the right balance for your horse x
I agree too with Jessey.If you feed grassnuts please soak them before feeding them as they swell up incredibly quickly once damp and like unsoaked sugar beet can cause colic.Grass nuts are often given to horses that are a little poor as they tend to put weight on a horse.They are a high source of protein as well as fibre so they may cause a reaction although it is unlikely.I too would mix his hay with oat straw and feed it ad lib to ensure he always has a full stomach.You may find that you won't need the grass nuts at all that way.
Just to refresh fatty has half bale of hay in his field each day, and there is some left at night so he cant be too hungry. He has haynets at night as ive said and i do try to cram them full so there is a little left in the morning, but he is a greedy pig if you leave him both big holed and small holed haynets he will eat all the big holed hay but leave the small holed hay so he cant be to hungry.
I think i will not use the grass nuts as a reward and just stick to a quartered apple in his rubber bucket, that way if all he is on is grass hay and maybe mineral/vitamin supplement, any weird behaviour i know is down to him and not what he is eating.
I have spoken to a feed 'expert' and have been told yes indeed grass nuts are high in sugar and protein and may have an effect on a horse like mine- that is one that looks at grass and gets fat.
He did have a salt lick - proper old fashioned one and he loved it he ate it in a week!!
I do think sometimes people are too keen to feed too many supplements of this that and the other, what would happen to a horse in the wild?
I think i will not use the grass nuts as a reward and just stick to a quartered apple in his rubber bucket, that way if all he is on is grass hay and maybe mineral/vitamin supplement, any weird behaviour i know is down to him and not what he is eating.
I have spoken to a feed 'expert' and have been told yes indeed grass nuts are high in sugar and protein and may have an effect on a horse like mine- that is one that looks at grass and gets fat.
He did have a salt lick - proper old fashioned one and he loved it he ate it in a week!!
I do think sometimes people are too keen to feed too many supplements of this that and the other, what would happen to a horse in the wild?
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Sorry you hadn't mentioned the 1/2 bale of hay in the day.
A horse in the wild would range over 100's of miles and graze on many different wild grasses and plants which means they can get all the different trace elements they need, unfortunatly when we keep them on small fields (comparatively) which are grazed most of the time and managed lots they don't get the variety of plants to eat and there fore don't get the nutrients they need.
The red mineral blocks are a good option if he will happily eat that sort of thing
Horses are very adept at self medicating, one of the things they have proved best at self regulating is salt, if he ate the block in a week he is obviously lacking salt from his diet and probably some of the other trace elements it provides - I would definatly have this available to him adlib.
If you don't think he is at all hungry then I too would cut out the grass nuts, see if it makes a difference though I really doubt 1 handfull every other day will have made that much difference
Do you use any groundwork etc to educate him as to what behaviour is and is not acceptable to you?
A horse in the wild would range over 100's of miles and graze on many different wild grasses and plants which means they can get all the different trace elements they need, unfortunatly when we keep them on small fields (comparatively) which are grazed most of the time and managed lots they don't get the variety of plants to eat and there fore don't get the nutrients they need.
The red mineral blocks are a good option if he will happily eat that sort of thing
Horses are very adept at self medicating, one of the things they have proved best at self regulating is salt, if he ate the block in a week he is obviously lacking salt from his diet and probably some of the other trace elements it provides - I would definatly have this available to him adlib.
If you don't think he is at all hungry then I too would cut out the grass nuts, see if it makes a difference though I really doubt 1 handfull every other day will have made that much difference
Do you use any groundwork etc to educate him as to what behaviour is and is not acceptable to you?
Yes i do, he is taught to stand before entering stable or field, and when coming out of stable. He is told to stand and wait and he does bless him. He gets a bit of apple from the floor, when caught after headcollar is put on. I just think his previous owner let him do what he wanted, in fact i dont think she bothered much with him at all. He didnt know 'back' but he does know. Thats not to say he doesnt challenge you, because of his confident nature sometimes you can ask him to back up, from the ground and he puts his head right up in the air and stares you out!!Still you cant have it all ways the last thing i wanted was a flighty spooky jittery horse and hes definately not that.
Sounds like he could be testing the water then, how long have you had him? sometimes they seem to settle really well then suddenly later seem to test the limits
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