Horse aggressive to owner in field

[juliecwuk]

Hi,

a friend on my yard has a horse who she bought a few months ago. she is having real trouble with her.

initially i dont think she was as bad but we had two new horses in the field about 5 weeks ago and she quickly bonded with one of them, then according to her owner her aggression started (although i think i remember her being generally 'nasty' (ears back, nipping) on numerous occassions towards her owner in the field before that).

Anyway it had got very dangerous, as soon as the girl goes in the field to catch her, the horse bites and tries to kick her and chases her out of the field. she doesnt appear to do it as much if i or another lady catch her (she will still have ears back but will move away rather than attack). i suppose the main difference is that me and the other lady are both into natural horsemanship (parelli mainly), so i suppose we approach her in a different way/feeling and shes not used to us catching her to then bring her in to ride her.

theres a couple of other things happening here i think - the horse used to be worked alot by the previous owner, now she is brought into be ridden pretty much everyday but doing the same old thing in the school for not very long - so is she bored? or was overworked before and is now enjoying resting in the field and therefore doesnt want to be caught?

about 2 weeks ago the owner decided to remove her out of the field and put her in a tiny paddock (with absolutely NO grass in it), true enough she was no longer nasty and came to her owner but to be fair she must have been starving so thats no suprise!

she is now back in the field as she kept escaping from the paddock. she was accepted into the herd again quickly but i would say she doesnt seem settled. i noticed this morning that she was trying to control/dominate the horse she had bonded with and the gelding, i guess this is just establishing heirachy again. she seems to walk around constantly with ears back and always seems in a mood. she doesnt do this with my horse cos my horse is boss.

anyway i was after some advice that i can give to her owner. i have told the owner to practise 'catching' her but in the way we do it - approach her, if she bites/kicks shoo her away, then approach again and move away when you have her (nice) attention. keep doing this until she accepts you. then when shes nice, leave her and dont bring her in. do you think this is right? it seems to work for me when i catch her.

i also think the owner is very nervous (i suppose i would be if my horse was attacking me all the time) and 'soft' (as in she allows herself to be bullied by the horse), but i think it has got to the stage where her owner has to change the way she is with the horse. luckily the owner is happy to talk about things and she let me do some parelli with the horse, but it really needs to come from the owner.

the horse is ok being ridden, a bit stroppy though - but to be honest i think better behaved when ridden by someone else.

also the horse refuses to walk out of the gate/into the stable with the owner, but with some simple pressure/release then she follows me almost immediately. she is generally quite 'moody' when being tacked up/handled/groomed in stable (but has now had chiropractor/shiatsu recently).

sorry, that was along message - its been playing on mind mind abit as im quite concerned for the owner/interested in understanding the horses issues!

thanks!

 

[diplomaticandtactful]

horse has owner sussed and is testing the boundaries.

just like rosie was when we got her at first, almost identical. we found NH techniques worked with her, but you have to be brave enough to believe in them and be totally consistent with how you handle the horse. rosie used to charge at me, shoulder shove me, turn her bum on me, was very angry and aggressive. she is now a large pudding. she was also nappy and planty when ridden.

the mare is probably an alpha mare and is asserting her authority - the only way is for the owner to gain her respect and get her in the correct place in the pecking order - all that you say points to the owner being too weak/inexperienced to deal with her and it is only going to get worse, plus the horse isn't very happy in all this.

if you can, teach her nh type stuff, not ride every day but get the mare used to being caught as something other than work, also if she is bored rigid in the work she does then that doesn't help. could she get someone in to teach her the basics and come weekly to give her lessons, so that she can practice in between times, that's what we did with rosie, the nh person came once a week, showed me exercises, got rosie to do them and left me to do them daily then have another session in a week. we turned her round in 4 weeks as she is a bright bunny.

otherwise you can see her for sale shortly.

 

[juliecwuk]

yeah, i was just thinking after i posted that message that my podiatrist follows monty roberts' techniques when dealing with equine behaviour cases. i will mention this to the owner, he may be able to do some work with them when he is here next.

i didnt think it was that bad but when i went to get my horse in the other day i saw the horse chasing the owner into an electirc paddock, the owner was in quite a state. it really must be awful.

 

[Nookster]

Did she do any of these things with the previous owner?

 

[juliecwuk]

hi nookster - not according to the owner. but she didnt know the previous owner and i dont think she saw her being caught in a field (i could be wrong but i dont think so). plus her owner has mentioned that the horse did spend a lot of time stabled at some point with her previous owner.

she was told that she was 'good as gold' but you can never really trust someone, you need to see it for yourself (mind you, i do always saw them being caught if im buying a horse).

 

[Nookster]

How old is the mare ? Your friends had her two months ? how long did previous owner have her?

Is the mare on any type of supplement to help with her dominance / aggressive behaviour?

I do agree with what big ears has written

 

[juliecwuk]

hi nookster - i will ask the new owner regarding supplements/feed etc.

the mare is only 7. owner has had her for about 2 months, previously i think she was with her other owner since being broken in.

as far as im aware shes not on any supplements to try to calm her down. any suggestions on those?

she is getting feed everyday still (she is overweight too). i will ask her what she feeds her - but i dont think its much more than just HIFI light/good doer.

 

[Harry Hobbes]

sorry, that was along message - its been playing on mind mind abit as im quite concerned for the owner/interested in understanding the horses issues!

Not long at all…and very well articulated.

But what does the owner wish to accomplish? (Don't take for granted or assume that she has the same goals that you have in your mind; she's a different person, so she'll have different goals.)

As someone that knows better, and based on your description, your concern is well-placed; but if the owner isn't motivated for a change, your concern is for naught. (She's the one that has to change, not you; and she may very well want the benefits that come with being dominated.)

The best thing you can do for this owner is ask the question: "What behaviors do you want this mare to exhibit?" Then, build a list of those behaviors.

Asking that (and the secondary questions flowing from, and based on that question), and building the a list of specifics can accomplish several things:

1. It begins the process of putting the correction process into objective terms, make informed comparisons, and allows the owner to think through the problem rationally.

2. It identifies the specific desired behaviors; what the owner wants the mare to do (rather than what she doesn't want the mare to do.)

3. It identifies specific training actions that can then be pursued to achieve the targeted behaviors.

4. It can identify specific training actions that the owner is not prepared (i.e., trained and experienced) to accomplish; and therefore the areas the owner needs to either train up on, or have someone else accomplish.

5. But most importantly, it gets the owner to think about her behaviors, her goals, and the mare's response to her behaviors in pursuit of those goals. (That is, what's really going on with the owner, and why the mare is reacting to the owner as she is; and what's important to the owner.)

Should the owner (with your help) put together the desired behaviors list, then she can start immediately with item number one, and just work down the list. (She can post a "…how to" question for each item herein, and receive advice on each specific issue if she wishes.)

Until these things are identified, all the canned solutions (…feed, chiropractor, isolation, etc.) are just shots in the dark.

Important note: We cannot train a horse (or people, for that matter) to not do something (such as don't run away); but we can - and should - train the horse to do something we want (such as stand still).

In other words, we won't be successful if we focus on the negatives ( e.g., "…stop doing that"), but can be successful is we focus on positives (e.g., "…do this instead"). It is crucial that the owner understand this principle, else she'll repeatedly be disappointed that the mare isn't avoiding those things the owner views as negatives, and her only recourse at that point is to punish. On the other hand, focusing on positive doing enables the ability to reward.

Best regards,
Harry

 

[Wally]

Our little stallion thought he'd try it on and see if I would run away, he got his little arse kicked and a fore arm smash for his troubles. He came back 10 minutes later to tell me he was sorry and didn't know what came over him, we are best of friends again.

 

[juliecwuk]

harry - that was a very informative response, thank you! you are certainly right about focusing on what you want her to do rather than dont!

well, the owner certainly wants a nice friendly mare but i think she is a little confused about how to get one. she is quite young and is influenced by lots of people who i wouldnt really listen to as i dont really approve of what they say.... anyway, everyones different! im really pleased that she is very interested in the natural horsemanship stuff even though the people around her dont appear to have been very supportive about it.

well had a chat this eve with her. turns out she has just watched a parelli catching game dvd, and went to catch the mare with this in mind today - and caught her with no kicking or biting, but still lots of ears back. she seems really keen to do this but not really willing to wait and improve matters. she is still determined to put her in a small paddock on her own next week - does anyone think this is a good idea or just hiding the issues?

i still think shes doing things wrong - still using lots of treats (which are fine, but timing is crucial i think), it seems to encourage the nipping/biting.

also she then ended up forcing her through the gate as the mare 'planted her feet/moved backwards'. i dont think she understands what i said about pressure/release. i will see if i can help/show her tomorrow and get her to use a rope halter/parelli rope.

 

[diplomaticandtactful]

the nh stuff we did with rosie was very kind on her, but it was clear, consistent and never changed. she was praised for being good and ignored or made uncomfortable for being aggressive. she worked out quickly she actually preferred to be a nice horse and come in from the cold and be stroked and admired. she still remembers it and if she gets arsy i give her a quick reminder of all the lessons....

but a pressure halter can be so abused if it is used to inflict pain. the whole point of it is that the second the horse says yes, the pressure has to come off so they know that was the good thing to do. it isn't used to drag them all over the place, but if anything to make them think.

the worst thing she can do with this mare is to sway with everyone she talks to and be inconsistent and chop and change things, she has to give one sort of training the chance to work. sticking the mare in a field on her own isn't the answer - rosie is in one like that but for laminitis, she knows it isn't for punishment! i open the stable door in the morning and she trots into her starvation paddock herself as there is a huge pile of hay there for her! not much of a life but that's all we can do for her safety.