How do you ASK a horse to work in an outline?!

C

*carrie*

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Mar 21, 2006
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Sounds like a strange one :D I KNOW Carrie can work in an outline because I have seen her do it with my instructor. I can only seem to get her to work properly every now and then. Then I realised that I don't know if I am actually asking her so .....question is in the title.

How do you actually ask your horse to work into a contact/outline?!
 
It's slightly different with all horses. As well as creating enough impulsion etc, it's about having enough contact to contain the energy you're creating and 'playing' with the reins, so that it encourages the horse to mouth the bit and hopefully repsond by becoming more supple and softening onto the bit.
 
It depends on the horse.

With a horse that has been well trained and knows that's how they should go but has been off work/out of practice, you'd need to: ride with a contact, asking the horse to work with impulsion. Then squeeze gently with alternate fourth fingers on the reins so your horse feels a little tiny tug at alternate corners of the mouth. The head should lower, and the back come up.

With a youngster/older horse who's not at all sure they should have to... The alternate squeezing becomes a little more obvious. Use all the fingers, and if still being ignored, move the hands back a tiny bit each time, (with the hands held lower, nearer your knees to help the horse get the idea) so it doesn't hurt, but is 'annoying'. As soon as the head drops, you give a little so the contact is light but still there, and the hands go nice and still as a reward. That's what my instructor taught me, and how she taught my horse to go on the bit.

- If your hands aren't still anyway, your horse won't stay on the bit so you need to practice that first, as being on the bit means that the bit is most effective and will hurt most if your hands aren't steady.
- Once your horse knows that's what's expected when you ride, all you'll need to do is pick up the reins, take a contact and the rest will automatically follow.
 
You don't. You ask for all the things that go with the outline - balance, rhythmn, straightness, suppleness and bend, and first and foremost that they are working forwards into a contact. Forget about the outline, and work on getting her on your aids, doing accurate movements and transitions.
You do have to be aware of your contact, the amount needed depends on your horse, but most importantly: however strong it is, it also needs to be soft so that your horse a) doesn't back off the bit, b) doesn't lean and try and run through the contact or c) goes round but learns to rely on a strong contact to hold him in the outline.

cvb (quoting Mark Rashid I think) says that you have to ask for softness (ie outline) with softness, and that's how I try to think of it.
I am always very conscious of my seat and legs (probably because I know that they behave strangely when given half a chance:o) and my elbows, since when you bring your elbows back into your hips then they become softer and the weight from your contact can transmit down your arm into your seat and thus the horses back, connecting the front end with the back end. (sounds a bit abstract, but I can't really think of how else to explain what the importance of elbows is)

I tend to find that if I start off a schooling session trying to get a horse into an outline then I tend to meet with a lot more resistence than I do if I start with the intention of improving straightness, or really working on transitions etc, and the horse tends to find it more beneficial as well.

I will finish this ramble later, gtg, but I am heading somewhere with it I promise!
 
I'm by no means an expert on this :D but we've just started lessons and are working towards getting Logic working correctly, although not especially focussing on the outline as such as my instructor says it was come when everything else is right (rhthym, balance, impulsion, bending).

One thing that helps me to get Logic into what appears to be a nice outline (still not working from behind enough yet though :rolleyes: ) is trotting shallow loops. If you're unfamiliar with them, it's similar to a 3 loop serpantine but you only loop about a third of the way into the school - and make sure you are bending correctly, not just turning your horse!
 
Just like to add:

A really great exercise that I was doing today with Coquette which got her working really nicely for me was halt-rein back-trot. It must be done very fluid to get the maximum benefit. When a horse is doing rein back properly, they'll stretch through the neck and back and take more weight on their hind legs. Think of it as a spring coiled up. Don't let them walk off, ask for a crisp trot transition (you may need a crop the first few times until your horse gets the hang of what you're doing). If they walk through it, all that coiled up energy just leaks out. If the horse trots off immediately, the energy is released immediately resulting in a more collected, springy trot. (We did it today, it really works!) Working on exercises like this builds up the muscles to help the horse work in an outline.
 
Keket said:
Just like to add:

A really great exercise that I was doing today with Coquette which got her working really nicely for me was halt-rein back-trot. It must be done very fluid to get the maximum benefit. When a horse is doing rein back properly, they'll stretch through the neck and back and take more weight on their hind legs. Think of it as a spring coiled up. Don't let them walk off, ask for a crisp trot transition (you may need a crop the first few times until your horse gets the hang of what you're doing). If they walk through it, all that coiled up energy just leaks out. If the horse trots off immediately, the energy is released immediately resulting in a more collected, springy trot. (We did it today, it really works!) Working on exercises like this builds up the muscles to help the horse work in an outline.
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Sounds good - will give this one a go next schooling sesh!
 
Theres no specific way you ask a horse to go in an outline, with the right work and exercise it should come on its own. You do ask for the engagement and softness, but you dont ask for the head carriage.

I find there are 4 foundations you need to achieve it:

1. Response
2. Balance
4. Suppleness
5. Straightness

1. Response - When you first get on, assess how responsive Carrie is. Does she move forwards off your leg easily? If you ask her to lengthen in walk do you have to kick or will just a squeeze do it? Spend 5 minutes at the start working on this. You cant expect a horse to work in an outline if they do not respond to your aids.

2. Balance - Once she is moving well off your leg, practise this by asking her to lengthen in walk down the long side. As soon as you get to the corner, collect her up again by shifting your pelvis forward, sitting tall and closing your leg. Try to use as little rein as possible. This will encourage her to step her hindlegs underneath her, too much rein and she will fall onto her forehand. Do this on both reins in walk and trot, and canter if you wish. This will get her to work like a spring and will encourage engagement. It will also stretch her top line including her back legs.

3. Suppleness - Then work on circles. Start with larger ones to begin with, riding from inside leg to outside hand. Have your inside leg on the girth to encourage her to bend round it and your outside leg behind the girth. Keep a loose contact on your inside rein, and a stronger contact on your outside rein, all while going round the circle. Your inside leg will encourage her inside leg to reach further underneath her, and after working on this she should take your inside rein and soften her neck. You will feel a lift in her stride. If you dont get it straight away dont worry, she will find it hard to begin with. Do this on both reins the try it at large, trying to create a slight bend whilst going round the arena. Try some spiralling - leg yield from a 10m circle out onto a 20m circle, this will encourage her inside leg to step underneath her more, encouraging the back end to work.

Straightness - This is similar to suppling, as it is about the horse being straight throughout her body. Practise going round a circle as if you were on a railway track, and down the centre line.

All these exercises will strengthen her top line and legs and make it easier for her to work properly. The head carriage will come on its own, and when it does, you'll know about it. So many people think 'head first' and find its not so special when the horse has its head tucked because theres no difference in stride, yet when a horse is truly working properly the horse feels like a spring, the opposing forces push the horse together - its a wonderful feeling like no other on a horse.

Hope this helps, there are variations to exercises you can do for each. Ask your RI or fish around in a few books for different things you can do to prevemt boredom. I have been doing this with my loan horse at the moment and am getting results after just a few sessions.
 
Some great advice there thanks guys. Keep it coming if anyone has anything to add but I will start having a go at a few suggestions tomorrow.

Thanks again
 
others have hit the nail on the head with that you don't exactly "ask" for "outline" but it happens when everything else falls into place.

you give the horse a consistent contact (and as others have said the strength varies depending on the horse) and you ask for softness (so that there is no leaning or evasion) by squeezing the inside rein. exercises should be used to get the hindquarters engaged, circles and spirals are the most common although you can do many other things like turn about the haunches/forehand. leg yielding and shoulder in can also be used as can hauches in, the latter 3 can be done on a circle for best effects but sometimes if the horse is unsure of the aid then doing them on a straight line is also beneficial. doing transitions is also a simple way of getting the hindquarters engaged. once the back end is more engaged the head should go into the "outline" and the back end and barrel of the horse will also work more but as i said at the beginning you have to have a consistent contact for the horse to work into.

of course there are people that can work their horses in an outline without a rein contact but the above is the more common.

hope that helps :)
 
coss said:
of course there are people that can work their horses in an outline without a rein contact but the above is the more common.
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Lol was that aimed at me and my strange pony?:p


The others have basically said what I was going to finish with.

Just building on Keket's idea, any non-progressive transitions (trot-halt-trot, and walk-canter) are fantastic for bringing their bums underneath them.

My RI also has me doing trot, 1 stride walk, trot. Another good one to engage the rear end.:)

Good luck.
 
alwaysfallingof said:
Lol was that aimed at me and my strange pony?:p
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And reiners. Watch a really good reiner. Their horses move in beautiful outlines with no contact at all. :)

alwaysfallingof said:
Just building on Keket's idea, any non-progressive transitions (trot-halt-trot, and walk-canter) are fantastic for bringing their bums underneath them.
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Coquette's bum got a workout today. In addition to the trot-halt-reinback-trot work, we were doing canter-halt, walk-canter and halt-canter transitions too. She was pretty tuckered out when we finished.

Riding the corners properly helps too. Coming into the corner, put the inside leg on and pick up slightly on the inside rein, but maintain contact on the outside rein. Coquette drops her nose immediately when I do this now.
 
This may just be what works for irritated RS horses but nudging with your heels and opening and closing your fingers around the reins helps them become softer and rounder when you have all the other bits as aforementioned and said hoss is still going around like a giraffe....:rolleyes:
 
A horse uses the same muscles in their topline as they do when they stop, or go backwards, or go down a transition. So if your horse does not yet have much muscle on it's topline do lots of downwards transitions, making sure your horse is shortening it's steps to a light aid, and stopping with a light aid. Shortening the walk or trot or canter is also a downwards transition, so lengthen for 8 steps, shorten for 8, lengthen for 8 etc, making sure you only have enough contact so you can only feel your horses tongue and lips. If you feel bone you are pulling too hard or your horse is. If your horse is pulling do a half halt with both reins and continue on. You will find your horse's self carriage will improve this way and he will be able to carry is own head hanging from his poll in a relaxed way.

This is the Andrew McLean method and it has done wonders for my horse in just three lessons.

Building up the topline muscles will help your horse to be able to work in a relaxed way.

I also agree you cannot get the following out of order (cannot move on to the next until you have the first one to each aid/response etc;
  • Basic Attempt - the horse offers correct response although may be crude - ie leg means go
  • Obedience - Timing - the response is improved to light signals
  • Rhythm - speed control, lengthening and shortening, cruise control
  • Straightness - Line control - the horse maintains his own line and direction
  • Contact - and outline - the consistency of the head and neck position is a consequence of the clear training of the horses legs (speed, straightness etc)
  • Engagement - the horse develops musculature and power in his stride that arises from physical training of acceleration and deceleration.

At the end of all that comes Proof - all of the above qualities can be elicited uniformly anywhere and at anytime or place! :)

That's what I am working on - all of the above.... :)
 
*carrie* said:
Sounds like a strange one :D I KNOW Carrie can work in an outline because I have seen her do it with my instructor. I can only seem to get her to work properly every now and then. Then I realised that I don't know if I am actually asking her so .....question is in the title.

How do you actually ask your horse to work into a contact/outline?!
Click to expand...

I'm afraid I think the brutal answer is "by getting your seat right." The horse doesn't know anything about outlines, or "correct" or "incorrect". A horse just makes itself comfortable, and it will go in what we describe as a "correct outline" when that is the most comfortable way for it to go. You get a good outline when the horse is comfortable there, and an incorrect outline when the horse is just finding the least uncomfortable place to be. (Incorrect being when it is more or less the right shape, probably because all sorts of gadgets have been used to pull it there, but tense and braced.)

When your seat is light and soft, the horse will stretch its back up to meet you. As a consequence, it's head will drop and its jaw relax. It moves in a soft, relaxed rhythm.

Basically, the horse mirrors the rider - so if you want the horse soft, straight, balanced and moving freely and rhythmically, the bad news is, you have to do all those things first!

Really, you've spotted it yourself - Carrie does it for your instructor, but only occasionally for you. Work out how it feels when she does it for you, and what you are doing at the time. That'll be how you ask for it!

I'm afraid I'm very much against the popular trend to have novice riders getting horses "in an outline". 90% of the time, all they are doing is destroying the outline by creating tension. Work on yourself, and the horse will happily come along too! You can then judge your own progress by how the horse is going - and let it happen gradually.
 
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alwaysfallingof said:
Lol was that aimed at me and my strange pony?:p


The others have basically said what I was going to finish with.

Just building on Keket's idea, any non-progressive transitions (trot-halt-trot, and walk-canter) are fantastic for bringing their bums underneath them.

My RI also has me doing trot, 1 stride walk, trot. Another good one to engage the rear end.:)

Good luck.
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you did come to mind :p
 
NZdressage said:
If you have an instructor, then it's their job to explain things like this to you. otherwise what are you paying them for?
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Whilst I agree in principle there's nothing wrong with asking for different points of view. There are some ways of 'getting' the horse in an outline that I don't agree with at all, ways that are taught by some RIs unfortunately! If you don't research different methods and ways of working you'd never know what was good and what was bad information.
 
To answer the original question, both mine respond to putting a little leg on, taking up a steady but not heavy contact and lightening the seat. The moment they soften I try and release the contact a little in reward. How 'correct' that is I don't know but it seems to work.
 
Keket said:
And reiners. Watch a really good reiner. Their horses move in beautiful outlines with no contact at all. :)



Coquette's bum got a workout today. In addition to the trot-halt-reinback-trot work, we were doing canter-halt, walk-canter and halt-canter transitions too. She was pretty tuckered out when we finished.

Riding the corners properly helps too. Coming into the corner, put the inside leg on and pick up slightly on the inside rein, but maintain contact on the outside rein. Coquette drops her nose immediately when I do this now.
Click to expand...

and yes i was also referring to reiners :)
 
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