The paperwork which came with the muzzle indicates the grass must be at least a couple of inches long so the horse can get enough grass to eat.
I am shocked and i have to say disgusted with myself
- Thread starter newforest
- Start date
The stigma of 'the field' is playing heavy on my mind.. I've not been able to relax at all since he's been back in it, and the fact he had to go out full time after developing the cough, has just made me more stressed.
Grazing quality and type is of course the reason most of us have a need to muzzle.
Mine is mostly rye grass and on flood plain,originally planted for cattle (although not much clover luckily),and in Devon which is on average several degrees warmer than the rest of the country.The grass is just too rich for horses and recovers super fast so always too much of it even with two horses on only an acre of land.
Muzzling means they can mooch around larger areas of it and keep the grass down to a reasonable level without consuming huge amounts at one time.They seem to be able to cope with the quality as long as they don't get the quantity.
When it does grow too fast and find myself with areas that are suddenly far too lush for them to go on (like when have rested parts of it),again the muzzle means they can go onto it for a few hours at a time to start eating it down but at a slow rate which their metabolism seems more able to cope with.
Personally I don't have long,dry grass and neither do I have short stressed grass,nor would I put a muzzled horse on it if I did.I just have very good grass that grows too fast and is totally unsuitable for a good doer to have unlimited access to.
I can't speak for every horse owner obviously,but I'm pretty sure I can safely say *most* owners only muzzle as part of a carefully considered regime based on the environment and facilities available to them,and never without clarification that the land is suitable.
Yet again I am going to apologies for waffling lol:redface:
I am currently in the process of sorting out with the farmer about getting the little paddock next to the kitchen refenced and looking for a friend for Magic. As soon as both of those are sorted he'll be coming home where I can be 'cruel' without anyone commenting. I'm gutted about his weight as I had worked so hard to keep his weight pretty much perfect all through the spring flush and summer and then he moved to the new yard and has put on 60kg in just under 2 months :cry:
I have imagined and worried about every scenario going regarding muzzles,but never had an incident with one yet *frantically touches wood*.
They are field safe and would come off in the event of an incident.I can't guarantee the same peace of mind with your other problem though her fieldmates may well help her remove it and you will be walking around 20 acres trying to find it:wink:
Get a cheaper one so doesn't matter so much if lost and try it would be my advice.The new shires comfort ones (with the cut out back,not the fleece covered ones) are not too many pennies and have been very pleased with mine.Grumpy cob even allows me to put it on (honestly didn't think I'd get it on a second time once he understood what it meant lol),without any fuss or trying to kill me or it lol
I sympathise NF. Another extremely good doer here and I'm struggling just now. I really appreciate this thread as it's difficult when field mates and fellow liveries are feeding up for the winter, to the point of trying to convince me there will be no harm to let my boy onto the rested part of the grazing in my field. My field mate wanted the fence down a month ago and couldn't understand why I had a near melt down at the thought! I'm now battling Flipo as she started putting her horse over onto the good grass, switched off the leccy fence and Flipo has snapped a fair few fence posts in the process of trying to get over there. Previous years, we've just extended out day by day but this year she's just switched and decided to let her horse over there. Some days I wonder why I'm fighting it and maybe I should just let him eat what he wants as he will inevitably lose it in the winter and the vet did say that while overall weight is important, what is even more so, is the fluctuation in weight they should experience throughout the year - leanest in spring, fattest in autumn - this protects them from ems apparently, although that fluctuation has to be within reason. But I'm still digging you heels in, I can't afford more vet bills and don't want him suffering so I had to fork out for a battery for the leccy fence and friend will get a shock (literally) when she realises it's back on.
I don't muzzle. I'm not a fan of them but would if I could - I tried it but it didn't work for us. My boy has never been fit, I just can't seem to get him to that stage with my confidence issues - we don't have far enough afield to venture, although I have now sussed out a nice bit of hill work and the corner of a field to school in so hope these will help.
I don't have the ideal set up. I shouldn't be sharing with the horse I am, I should have a smaller field. I struggle twice yearly for compromise - spring and autumn. It's difficult when you're competing with other people's wants for their horses (although I think a lot of this is down to convenience for the other owner grrr!)
Right now, a little paddock on our own is looking mighty good. When I'm earning millions I will (more fool me) buy another good doer and have my own field with my own rules. Until then, we struggle on. Sorry for pointless waffle, just joining in lol!
I don't muzzle. I'm not a fan of them but would if I could - I tried it but it didn't work for us. My boy has never been fit, I just can't seem to get him to that stage with my confidence issues - we don't have far enough afield to venture, although I have now sussed out a nice bit of hill work and the corner of a field to school in so hope these will help.
I don't have the ideal set up. I shouldn't be sharing with the horse I am, I should have a smaller field. I struggle twice yearly for compromise - spring and autumn. It's difficult when you're competing with other people's wants for their horses (although I think a lot of this is down to convenience for the other owner grrr!)
Right now, a little paddock on our own is looking mighty good. When I'm earning millions I will (more fool me) buy another good doer and have my own field with my own rules. Until then, we struggle on. Sorry for pointless waffle, just joining in lol!
EML - and I wouldn't muzzle on old long grass (not that we have any, unfortunately). I tend to muzzle after eg rain and suchlike. def agree on the stressed grass as well - 'starvation paddock' gave my pony lami at the old yard. and actual 'starvation' (thank God that's gone out of fashion it seems!!) for lami is not good - leaving a horse with no food for days will just aggravate their gut further.
Given the amount of poos Joy produces with her muzzle on, I hardly think she's starving!
I've thought about her habits a lot. I have always described her as a really good doer. In reality that's misleading as in fact she never stops eating and just eats more than all the others do.
I've thought about her habits a lot. I have always described her as a really good doer. In reality that's misleading as in fact she never stops eating and just eats more than all the others do.
I am in exactly the same boat as you FM sharing a field with an old TB and not able to muzzle I spend the whole summer moving round the fields to keep weight on one and weight off the other! Thankfully we have fairly poor chalk grazing overall.... I am surprised though we have got to page 3 of this debate before someone has mentioned the natural fluctuations, we will always finish the summer fatter and the winter lean I sometimes wonder if people are so obsesses with keeping weight maintained on their tapes they forget that some natural fluctuations should take place... Has no one watched their horse on a field at dusk now compared to a month ago? ours are in that must eat winters coming speed eating that you only see at this time of year.. Needless to say her suggestion she needs breakfast when the tb has hers is being completely ignored!
I think the way you are feeling NF speaks volumes, you obviously care about your horse and now you know you can do something about it.
I definitely agree that it is not so much the miles covered but the intensity of the work that matters for weight loss. What you were doing doesn't sound like enough to me. When Rubic was at her fittest last year she was doing a good hour in the school mostly in trot and canter with loads of transitions and gridwork if I was jumping. Out hacks we'd be out for about an hour with some good bursts of canter and trotting up hills. Yes we'd have the odd lazy hack where we didn't do much and trundled along but the vast majority of her work was high intensity. She was either out overnight and in during the day with a soaked haynet or muzzled during the day.
Rubic had put on a lot of weight when I couldn't exercise her for whatever reason.
With not being allowed any great deal of exercise (imo in hand walks are not exercise that will burn fat lol) I've had to be very, very strict with what I feed Rubic. She is out in a small paddock during the day (and the grass doesn't last long in there I can tell you!) with a large armful of unsoaked hay and in overnight with hay that has been soaked overnight. She gets 2 low calorie feeds with her supplements. Rubic weighed 545kg when she went into the vet school nearly 12 weeks ago, she is now around 462kg on the weight tape (so I imagine weighs around 470-5kg) and the vets have said how well I've done getting her to lose weight while she has been on box rest. I'm hoping to use the winter to get a bit more weight off her as things have evened out a little. It can be done!
I have to say I like vets that tell it like it is - it is their job. However I had one very unhelpful vet when it came to flu jag time. Rubic was in a lot of work and I was trying my best at the time to keep her weight down but it just wasn't working. Vet knew none of this but as she was leaving came out with "Your horse is fat, here's a DVD you should watch and a leaflet to read", got into her car and left. I was furious. There are ways to say things and ways to be helpful and encouraging but she did neither and left me with the leaflet and DVD (which I have to say, didn't tell me anything I didn't already know). I could have done with talking about it, incase there was something I had missed but I never even got the chance.
I definitely agree that it is not so much the miles covered but the intensity of the work that matters for weight loss. What you were doing doesn't sound like enough to me. When Rubic was at her fittest last year she was doing a good hour in the school mostly in trot and canter with loads of transitions and gridwork if I was jumping. Out hacks we'd be out for about an hour with some good bursts of canter and trotting up hills. Yes we'd have the odd lazy hack where we didn't do much and trundled along but the vast majority of her work was high intensity. She was either out overnight and in during the day with a soaked haynet or muzzled during the day.
Rubic had put on a lot of weight when I couldn't exercise her for whatever reason.
With not being allowed any great deal of exercise (imo in hand walks are not exercise that will burn fat lol) I've had to be very, very strict with what I feed Rubic. She is out in a small paddock during the day (and the grass doesn't last long in there I can tell you!) with a large armful of unsoaked hay and in overnight with hay that has been soaked overnight. She gets 2 low calorie feeds with her supplements. Rubic weighed 545kg when she went into the vet school nearly 12 weeks ago, she is now around 462kg on the weight tape (so I imagine weighs around 470-5kg) and the vets have said how well I've done getting her to lose weight while she has been on box rest. I'm hoping to use the winter to get a bit more weight off her as things have evened out a little. It can be done!
I have to say I like vets that tell it like it is - it is their job. However I had one very unhelpful vet when it came to flu jag time. Rubic was in a lot of work and I was trying my best at the time to keep her weight down but it just wasn't working. Vet knew none of this but as she was leaving came out with "Your horse is fat, here's a DVD you should watch and a leaflet to read", got into her car and left. I was furious. There are ways to say things and ways to be helpful and encouraging but she did neither and left me with the leaflet and DVD (which I have to say, didn't tell me anything I didn't already know). I could have done with talking about it, incase there was something I had missed but I never even got the chance.
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That is exactly the same with my Ben. He eats, eats, eats and then eats some more. When the other horses run around the field, Ben is eating. When the other horses groom each other, Ben is eating. Ben never stops eating!
Our grazing is so good. At the moment the boys (max of 6, but they are hardly ever all out at the same time) are in an approx. 10 acre field. It has been rested since last April and cut for hay in early August. The boys went in there at the beginning of September and will stay until December when their other field has had a good rest.
The grass is long (about 6 inches) and bright green. I like Ben to have good quality grass and this certainly is. He doesn't have any other supplements (apart from a salt lick) so he needs the grass for all his vitimins. If I let him go on that grass without the muzzle we would be right back to where we were last year.
I agree that horses should not be on starvation paddocks, but I don't know anyone who would muzzle if the grass was that short. If there was no grass, most horses would not be fat in the first place.
I used to worry about this as well. Ben was an expert at getting his muzzle off so he needs to have a leather headcollar over the top of it to keep it on. The muzzle I use is a fieldsafe one with a plastic clip which would easily snap if it got caught. The leather headcollar would also snap as well. He has been wearing it everyday for 7 months and we have never had a problem.
It's all about weighing up the pros and cons. For me, I either turn him out in a muzzle with his friends, or I have to leave him in his stable for hours on end. I don't want him standing in his stable for 18 hours a day, so the muzzle allows him to be a horse and still go out. It's not ideal, I would perfer for him to be without it and eat whatever he wanted to, but it is my responsbility to keep him healthy and sometimes difficult decisions need to be made.
Flipo- yes I do agree that hardy ponies are designed to put on in summer to come out of winter slim, but I think this is based on moorland ponies on loads of crap grass. The RSPCA actually prefers to see a slighly underweight horse than a slightly overweight one-if the talk was anything to go by.
Mine has been what I call a bit overweight in readiness for her to lose it over the winter, she came out of last winter slim, but the problem this year is she going into Autumn already overweight, by about 60kg and has fat deposits. Its those that's the concern as that's an ems sign-added to her other clinical signs.
I have had a good doer before and although he wasn't ever slim, he never ever ended up like this, Autumn is before winter.
Mine has been what I call a bit overweight in readiness for her to lose it over the winter, she came out of last winter slim, but the problem this year is she going into Autumn already overweight, by about 60kg and has fat deposits. Its those that's the concern as that's an ems sign-added to her other clinical signs.
I have had a good doer before and although he wasn't ever slim, he never ever ended up like this, Autumn is before winter.
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Yes mine is in the winter is coming must stuff mode, however she was already overweight when she felt the need to stuff. She tries to grab any grass we go past and I have had to remind her of her manners. Its this excess excess that must come off, she can't go into winter this big. Its either ems or I haven't done enough bad mummy. A really fat horse is just as much a welfare issue as a skinny one. Having a go at myself here no one else.
Both ours have a night net inside another net to make it last longer. I've not heard it causes stress? They seem pretty efficient at emptying it!!
I have to say I agree with this. If Dolly has an ordinary hay net she devours it at such a speed that it really isn't good for her. Solly was the same - and even my donkeys have no trouble with the small hole hay nets.
Rather strangely when I feed them their hay during the winter, on the ground and outside, they don't bolt it down at all, but if they are in for some reason and I use an ordinary hay net they bolt it down?
Small hole hay nets were a must for me with Solly and would do the same if any of them needed to be just on hay and restricted.
Yeah sorry this was more in the general scheme of weight management rather than aimed at anyone.. I think once horses are within an acceptable weight band some fluctuation should be allowed for the same health reasons as not getting too fat for example..
I should have given my sources about the stress and nets, it was a talk on ulcers.
Horses are trickle feeders, little and often and do need something in the stomach, you get acid splash back after four to six hours with no food, so if the horse does run out totally they are still producing this acid which could then create ulcers and being totally without food in a stable could cause stress if they don't know when they will next eat.
They can heal this themselves if its not too bad. It was an interesting talk and they said not to starve fat animals because you create other problems.
Horses are trickle feeders, little and often and do need something in the stomach, you get acid splash back after four to six hours with no food, so if the horse does run out totally they are still producing this acid which could then create ulcers and being totally without food in a stable could cause stress if they don't know when they will next eat.
They can heal this themselves if its not too bad. It was an interesting talk and they said not to starve fat animals because you create other problems.
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